The Real Reason Huge AI Models Actually Work [Prof. Andrew Wilson]
Massive deep learning models succeed by leveraging implicit simplicity biases and volume geometry that naturally favor generalizable solutions over overfitting.
Highlights
12 clips · 18 min of 124 min-
- Massive models can exhibit stronger simplicity biases than smaller ones.
- The classical bias-variance trade-off does not always hold in modern deep learning.
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- Parameter counts fail to accurately reflect true model complexity.
- The induced distribution over functions dictates model behavior and preferences.
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- Increasing model flexibility first hurts and then helps generalization through double descent.
- Massive parameter scales naturally lean toward simple solutions consistent with observations.
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- Building larger models can alleviate overfitting past the interpolation threshold.
- Once training loss hits zero, other biases like solution flatness dominate model selection.
- The empirical prescription is to make models as large as possible combined with a compression bias.
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- Deep ensembles approximate the Bayesian predictive distribution better than traditional MCMC or laplace approximations.
- Empirically successful non-Bayesian methods often actually represent better Bayesian marginalization.
- Deep ensembles were mistakenly categorized as a non-Bayesian alternative due to performance comparisons.
- For a given computational budget, ensembles do a superior job of approximating the Bayesian predictive distribution.
- The correct historical correction is that model construction needs to be more Bayesian, not less.
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- Soft biases incur a small penalty for deviating from a structural constraint like equivariance.
- If the constraint fits the data, the model naturally collapses down onto that constrained solution.
- Gentle priors achieve comparable performance to perfectly constrained models while retaining flexibility.
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- Full-batch gradient descent achieves generalization similar to SGD without explicit implicit regularization tricks.
- Even random sampling (guess-and-check) yields comparable generalization in heavily over-parameterized models.
- The geometric volume of low-loss regions drives generalization rather than optimizer dynamics alone.
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- Training transformers exclusively on Gaussian random matrices fails when tested on out-of-distribution matrices like identity matrices.
- Enriching the training distribution with diverse structured matrices enables the transformer to learn underlying algorithms rather than just interpolating.
- Data-driven algorithm discovery is viable when training sets cover a sufficiently rich space of structures.
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- Text-based pre-training predisposes models to discover compressible representations and salient physical symmetries like rotation invariance.
- Compression bias acts as a universal induction principle across vastly different low-level modalities.
- Vision transformers can achieve lower translation equivariance error than purpose-built convolutional neural networks at scale.
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- More complex models can generate a wider variety of datasets, forcing them to spread their probability mass more thinly.
- Marginal likelihood automatically penalizes unnecessary model complexity by measuring the volume of supported data distributions.
- This formalizes Occam's razor mathematically without requiring manual regularization hacks.
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- Combinatorial optimization like integer programming is difficult due to a lack of smoothness.
- Expanding the search space to floating-point numbers enables smooth gradient-based optimization.
- Smooth navigation helps the optimizer successfully land on near-optimal discrete solutions.
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- Parameter sharing can hinder compute-optimal scaling when training data is unlimited.
- With a negligible generalization gap, the goal shifts to maximizing parameters per flop.
- Fine-grained mixture of experts and structured matrices improve efficiency by operating over individual layers.
That’s all the highlights.
Questions this video answers
14 · every answer cites the moment it was said01 Why is the bias-variance trade-off considered a misnomer in deep learning? 2 sources · 2:13
The classical bias-variance trade-off assumes you must choose between fitting data well and stability under sampling. However, modern deep learning shows that massive models can achieve both low bias and low variance simultaneously. This happens because scale introduces an implicit simplicity bias that naturally favors generalizable solutions over overfitting.
02 Why is parameter count a poor proxy for model complexity? 2 sources · 9:01
Counting parameters fails to capture the actual properties of the induced distribution over functions. An expressive model can have many parameters while maintaining strong preferences or soft constraints for certain types of solutions. Therefore, flexibility and simplicity bias can coexist, allowing models to adapt properly across data regimes.
03 How do soft constraints compare to hard constraints in model construction? 2 sources · 9:36
Hard constraints rigidly restrict the hypothesis space, which often misrepresents real-world complexities and fails if assumptions are slightly off. Soft constraints keep the model expressive while penalizing deviations from desired behaviors. When consistent with observations, expressive models naturally collapse down onto these soft constraints.
04 Why are deep ensembles better than approximate Bayesian methods? 2 sources · 31:11
For a given computational budget, deep ensembles do a much better job of approximating the true Bayesian predictive distribution and marginalization. Historical comparisons incorrectly framed them as non-Bayesian alternatives when they actually act more Bayesian.
05 How do soft constraints compare to hard constraints in model construction? 2 sources · 33:15
Soft biases or gentle encouragements toward certain constraints can perform just as well as perfectly constrained models. Because they pay a small penalty for deviating, they collapse onto the constraint if it fits the data well.
06 What drives the simplicity bias in large neural networks? 2 sources · 50:42
Geometric properties of the loss landscape, particularly the exponential dominance of the volume of flat solutions as parameter count grows, drive simplicity biases. Optimization methods like SGD or even random search land in these generalizable flat regions.
07 How well do transformers handle matrix operations without specialized tools? 3 sources · 1:03:21
Transformers can handle in-distribution matrix operations reasonably well when trained on standard normal matrices, but they fail completely outside that distribution. Enriching the training distribution with diverse matrix structures allows the model to generalize and discover underlying algorithms.
08 Can text pre-trained LLMs be applied effectively to time series or materials generation? 2 sources · 1:06:11
Yes, off-the-shelf text-trained LLMs can perform surprisingly well on time series forecasting and materials generation tasks. When fine-tuned on atomistic data, they can generate inorganic crystals with favorable properties better than purpose-built models.
09 Why is Bayesian marginalization important for highly expressive deep learning models? 2 sources · 1:13:46
Marginalization represents honest uncertainty over what solution is correct given finite data, preventing the model from betting everything on a single parameter setting. As model expressivity increases, more parameter settings fit the observed data, making marginalization crucial for generalization.
10 How does stochastic optimization relate to flat minima and Bayesian methods? 2 sources · 1:22:49
Stochastic optimization with small batches tends to find flat minima rather than sharp ones, resulting in better test loss and generalization. Bayesian marginalization naturally places most of its volume in these flat regions, offering an elegant alternative to manually defining and penalizing sharpness in loss functions.
11 What is mode connectivity in neural networks? 2 sources · 1:39:48
Mode connectivity demonstrates that separately initialized neural network solutions are not isolated by high-loss barriers. Using simple parametric curves like quadratic Bezier curves, you can walk between different modes without increasing the training loss along the path.
12 How does increasing model size affect simplicity bias? 2 sources · 1:47:26
Making neural network models larger often enhances rather than reduces a natural simplicity bias. This explains why overparameterized models generalize better in the second descent phase despite having zero training loss.
13 Why did parameter sharing fail to improve compute-optimal scaling? 2 sources · 1:55:44
Parameter sharing like in convolutions turned out not to be optimal when there is an abundance of data and no generalization gap. In that data-rich regime, the optimal strategy is maximizing parameters per flop rather than sharing parameters.
14 What is the ultimate goal for advanced AI systems beyond current applications? 2 sources · 2:00:35
The ultimate goal is developing AI systems capable of discovering fundamental scientific theories like general relativity or quantum mechanics. Moving beyond black-box function approximators will yield genuine new insights into physics and the natural world.
Section-by-section summary
24 parts
Deep learning's universality and the bias-variance misnomer
Deep learning is distinguished primarily by its broad applicability and representation learning capabilities rather than inherent mysteries. The classical bias-variance trade-off fails to capture how modern overparameterized models can achieve both low bias and low variance.
Challenging misconceptions about scale and simplicity
Research fields often get stuck in local minima due to strongly held misconceptions regarding model construction and stochastic optimization. Scale introduces a powerful simplicity bias that helps models generalize even with limited data points.
Parameter count is a poor complexity proxy
Counting parameters is a poor proxy for model complexity compared to evaluating the induced distribution over functions. Expressive models combined with strong simplicity biases automatically adapt well to both small and large datasets.
Combining scientific understanding with engineering details
Pairing classical theory with empirical observations yields durable understanding that outlives specific algorithms. Scientists use control to gain knowledge while engineers use knowledge to gain control.
Soft constraints and double descent explain scale
Rather than rigid geometric constraints, soft constraints and high expressiveness let models collapse onto desirable solutions naturally. Double descent demonstrates that larger models alleviate overfitting through emerging simplicity biases.
The bias-variance trade-off is a misnomer
Ensembling and large neural networks achieve both low bias and low variance, directly disproving the traditional trade-off. Flatness is just one of many properties controlling generalization, and low loss remains the primary goal.
Real-world data distribution and Bayesian deep ensembles
Real-world data occupies a small corner of possible problems, heavily biased toward local complexity. Deep ensembles actually provide a superior approximation of the Bayesian predictive distribution compared to methods traditionally labeled as Bayesian.
Deep ensembles actually approximate Bayesian inference better
Early misconceptions framed deep ensembles as a non-Bayesian alternative because they outperformed approximate Bayesian methods. In reality, deep ensembles do a superior job of marginalization, proving we need to be more Bayesian.
Soft biases match hard constraints with better expressiveness
Enforcing structural constraints via soft penalties—like residual pathway priors for equivariance—allows models to maintain expressiveness while collapsing onto the constraint if it fits the data. Gentle parameter priors prevent extreme outcomes while preserving flexibility.
Expressive models can still possess strong simplicity biases
Infinitely wide models like Gaussian processes demonstrate that extreme expressiveness can coexist with powerful simplicity preferences, leading to high data efficiency. We can reconcile Radford Neil's thesis on complexity with overfitting by separating model expressiveness from complexity.
Large models implicitly approximate Solomonov induction
Double descent reveals that over-parameterized models generalize well because they are implicitly biased toward low Kolmogorov complexity solutions. Tight generalization bounds are achievable using Solomonov priors, proving that scale enhances simplicity bias.
Loss landscape geometry drives the implicit simplicity bias
The volume of flat solutions grows exponentially with model size, causing optimization to naturally favor compressible parameters regardless of whether full-batch or SGD is used. This geometric shift explains why larger models generalize better without hand-crafted regularizers.
Transformers struggle with out-of-distribution primitive operations
While large models capture low Kolmogorov complexity patterns, training on Gaussian random matrices leaves transformers brittle when encountering out-of-distribution structures like identity matrices. True general intelligence requires robust internal representations of core primitives rather than relying solely on shortcuts.
Learning fundamental primitives inside transformers
While LLMs can use external tools, training them on fundamental primitives like matrix operations helps build robust internal representations. Exposing models to a rich distribution of structured matrices enables true algorithmic generalization beyond simple interpolation.
Text pre-training transfers to time series and materials
Off-the-shelf text LLMs applied naively to time series forecasting and inorganic crystal generation perform surprisingly well. Text-based pre-training instills a compression bias that helps models quickly discover necessary invariances and symmetries.
Representing uncertainty through Bayesian marginalization
Being Bayesian means maintaining an honest representation of epistemic uncertainty over solutions given finite data. Marginalizing over parameter space becomes increasingly crucial as model expressivity and parameter counts grow.
Connecting Bayesian methods to flat minima
Stochastic optimization naturally finds flat minima that generalize better, aligning with Bayesian marginalization which naturally weighs flat regions more heavily. Although full Bayesian inference is computationally challenging, approximate methods like Gaussians yield clear performance gains.
Using marginal likelihood for scientific hypothesis testing
Marginal likelihood provides a principled way to perform model selection and scientific hypothesis testing by quantifying how well a model predicts observed data without overfitting. This approach successfully distinguishes general relativity from alternative theories by penalizing overly flexible hypotheses.
Training dynamics link compression to model quality
Viewing model training through information theory connects marginal likelihood to sequential coding and data compressibility. Models typically learn structure before noise, reflecting an evolution driven by compute-limited complexity.
Scaling laws and grocking stem from representational reorganization
Phenomena like grocking and double descent occur because continued training forces models to reorganize into simpler, highly compressible representations. Stochastic weight averaging helps exploit these flat loss regions to achieve better generalization.
Mode connectivity reveals continuous flat manifolds
Retraining neural networks from different initializations demonstrates that distinct local optima are often connected by flat paths with zero loss barrier. This geometry indicates that loss landscapes form high-dimensional manifolds rather than isolated pockets.
Balancing expressiveness and simplicity bias
Effective model design requires combining expressive architectures with a robust simplicity bias, which larger models naturally exhibit through scaling. Researchers aim to engineer these compression biases into smaller models directly.
Inductive biases can improve scaling exponents
While Rich Sutton's bitter lesson emphasizes brute-force compute over hand-crafted features, learning fundamentally requires making assumptions. Designing structured layers like block tensor trains can actively improve scaling exponents and data efficiency.
The ultimate goal is discovering fundamental scientific theories
Current large language models excel at benchmark tasks but lack genuine scientific insight or understanding. The next frontier is automating the discovery of fundamental physical and biological theories rather than relying on black-box curve fitting.
n next · p previous clip · t highlights/full
< > slower/faster · / search what was said
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Simplicity bias22× · first 6:00
The inherent tendency of models, particularly large ones, to favor simpler and more generalizable solutions.
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Double descent14× · first 1:46
A phenomenon where test error decreases, increases, and then decreases again as model capacity grows.
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Solomonov prior2× · first 45:15
A prior assigning exponentially stronger preferences to solutions with low Kolmogorov complexity.
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Kolmogorov complexity6× · first 45:34
The shortest possible program that can generate a given hypothesis or data sequence.
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AAM's razor15× · first 1:37
The induction principle that simpler explanations or compressed representations are generally preferred and lead to better generalization.
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Marginal likelihood11× · first 1:25:04
The probability of generating a particular dataset under a model prior, acting as a built-in penalty for complexity in Bayesian model selection.
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Mode connectivity4× · first 0:59
The discovery that different local optima in a neural network loss landscape can be connected by paths of zero training loss.
23,267 words · about 93 min to read
Deep learning's universality and the bias-variance misnomer
So when I say deep learning is not so mysterious or different, I'm not saying that deep learning is not mysterious or not different. I think it's actually both. It's rather that the ways in which people often think it's mysterious can be relatively well understood both intuitively through a notion of soft inductive biases, but also formally in terms of rigorous generalization frameworks that have actually existed for many decades. And a lot of these phenomena can also be reproduced using other model classes. I think deep learning really is distinguished in its relative universality. How broadly applicable it is relative to other model classes. That doesn't mean that it's anywhere close to being completely universal, but it's sort of a movement in the direction of universality, a significant movement. It also does representation learning incredibly effectively. It has properties of its optimization objective, its loss landscape which are relatively different and surprising like mode connectivity.
And so I think deep learning is certainly different and mysterious but often not in the ways that that people might might believe. So, I'm very excited to be talking to you both even though it can be challenging knowing that there are so many people watching. But I think there are so many fundamental misconceptions in the way that people understand generalization and model construction and artificial intelligence. It's really important to hear a different perspective around, for example, how it's completely fine to
1 Highlight · The bias-variance trade-off is a misnomer
build a huge model that will also have a stronger bias for simple solutions. have more of an aams razor-l like behavior than even smaller models. And these sorts of perspectives actually help us understand phenomena that are often seen as very mysterious like double descent and benign overfitting and over parameterization and give us a principled approach for thinking about how we're going to build our own models for whatever properties we're interested in.
There's this fundamental trade-off between bias and variance. And it feels like you're saying you can have your cake and eat it and you can keep them in the mixture and you still win. And that just goes against most people's intuition. So I think the bias variance trade-off is an incredible misnomer. There doesn't actually have to be a trade-off. Folks, that interview with Andrew was absolutely amazing. Keith came over to
the UK and we did it in my home studio together a few weeks ago. that's been on Patreon for a little while and I updated so much based on that interview. Andrew was absolutely brilliant. So, I know you're going to love it. But before we kick off, you've probably heard that human data is kind of the dirty secret of Silicon Valley. You know, human data is the reason why these AI models work so well because the open AIs and the anthropics, what they do is they hire humans to do things like data set curation and evaluation and post- training. And there is a ridiculous kind of uplift from using this human data.
Our sponsor Prolific, what they want to do is produce the first survey on how human data is being used in AI. And if you volunteer and fill out this form for them, they will give you first access to see how you compare. So I'd really appreciate it if you did that. There's no personally identifiable information. Link is in the description. And we are also sponsored by Twofer AI Labs. They are an incredible research lab based in Zurich. They've just upgraded their office. They've got an amazing new office. They've hired 13 research engineers in the last year doing things like reasoning and the ARK challenge.
You've probably seen some of the papers that they've published on that. But they have ambitions to build their own foundation models from scratch. They've got an amazing culture. And Benjamin Kruier, the the director, is also very interested in AI safety. So he's going through the Yudcowski book at the moment. So if that seems like a fit for you, please get in touch with Benjamin Kruier. Go to twoflabs.ai
Challenging misconceptions about scale and simplicity
or look in the description. And also MLST is sponsored by Cyber Fund. Enjoy the show, folks. Well, Andrew, much of your work challenges conventional wisdom. Is that hard to do? Is there resistance in challenging strongly held beliefs? So, yes. I mean, this is what happens when you challenge conventional wisdom. But in some sense, I think that we should always be trying to do that because otherwise we're just preaching to the choir and then what's the point?
If no one if you're not changing anyone's beliefs about anything, then maybe it doesn't make a difference. And so I think it's important to really try to understand what do a lot of people believe that might be wrong and then just unpack that. And it's also very exciting and fun. But it's challenging because of course the initial instinct will be to resist whatever you're saying. But then over time and if you try hard enough and if you talk to amazing communicators like you two then you can start to have an influence. And I think that's really important because so much progress has been stalled, I think, by just getting stuck on misconceptions. Like once a certain number of people believe something, it's very, very hard to change their minds, no matter what you say. And I think as a consequence, we've been in all sorts of local minima in machine learning and AI research because we haven't been able to get unstuck from these erroneous beliefs. And there's a whole roster of things like this like the role of
implicit biases of stochastic optimization in generalization I think is significant but also significantly overstated. Um how we can have really large models that also generalize well even when there's a small number of data points is something that is not very well recognized. um and in fact I think is one of the primary drivers of scale being important for achieving good generalization. So not just flexibility this simplicity bias that comes about through scale. I think another misconception is this idea that we should change our model depending on how many data points we happen to have available. And this is might even be the most controversial one. The reason I don't think we should is because we should always honestly represent our beliefs and our beliefs about the process that generated our data typically shouldn't change depending on how many data points we happen to have access to. And you can actually
demonstrate that these principles work in practice. So you can have models that will be very good when you have a small number of data points and also very good when you have a very large number of data points. And so this relates to not necessarily needing to have hard constraints but instead combining expressiveness with alam tracer. Yeah. And you know you're you're only slowly starting to convince me to give up this 10,000 you know degree polomial is bad and and I'm only starting to change because you value simplicity bias towards simplicity as much as I do. And the real key for me was understanding that somehow scale has a bias towards simplicity. And I
Parameter count is a poor complexity proxy
don't know why or where it comes from, but I believe it. And it's weird. And can we just set this up? So in your talk last year, your first slide, so you had a bunch of students in the room and and you showed like a fairly sort of simple linear correlated, you know, airline passenger data. Airline passenger data. Okay. It was it was pretty linearly seasonality. and and you said here's three models. One is basically y= mx plus c or something like that. Just a just a straight line. And I think was the second one something like 10 parameters and 10,000 parameters was the third one. And almost everyone in the room said they preferred one or two. And you said at the end of this conversation, I'm going to convince you to prefer three, which was 10,000 parameters.
And I took a poll at the end and it did shift. And so that was promising. Yeah. I I sort of joke sometimes that if I hadn't met the airline passenger data set, I don't know really what my life would be like now because it's it's driven so much of my research. Um and it's just amazing how people are biased towards choosing the linear function or the cubic polomial even if in practice they're not making that choice. Like on for example, it's not uncommon to use a neural net with tens of millions of parameters to fit a training set with tens of thousands of data points. And even before deep learning was popular, we were doing nonparametric statistics where we were working with models like Gaussian processes that were inspired by taking infinite limits of neural nets that are more flexible than any neural net you can fit in memory and other popular coariance functions as well like the RBF kernel really are like saying I want to use an infinite order polinomial. And so even in these kind of classical statistical models we're
2 Highlight · Parameter counting is a poor complexity proxy
implicitly saying well if we're unhappy about the third choice it's actually because it doesn't have enough parameters. We want infinitely many parameters, not just 10,000 parameters. And I think another way to say this is that parameter counting is a very bad proxy for model complexity. Really, what we care about is the properties of this sort of induced distribution over functions rather than just how many parameters the model happens to have. And so you can have a distribution over functions which is very flexible. It can represent many different solutions to a given problem. But it can also have very strong preferences for certain types of solutions over others. And strong preferences doesn't mean saying that certain things are impossible necessarily. They can just have epsilon probability. And I think that that is really meaningfully different than saying, okay, we're we're going to have a hard constraint and we're not going to represent those solutions. A because it's not an honest represent of our representation of our beliefs to to have those hard constraints and B because we see in practice that when
we do have these expressive models with simplicity biases, they're much more adaptive. They're much more automatic. So when you have a small data set, it sort of does the right thing. When you have a large data set, it also does the right thing. And so you don't need as much human intervention. And arguably,
that's the definition of what really machine learning is trying to achieve. It's trying to build an intelligent system that doesn't require manual intervention. And so I think this is an important principle towards that goal. You know, you you had a paper kind of removing some of the mysteries of deep learning, but I think it's it's still fair to say it's a bit mysterious where the simplicity bias comes from at scale, isn't it? It is. So there is some handwavy intuition around lost landscapes. And I think this is borne out empirically. So we can sort of understand for example that the solutions that we're finding when we're building larger models are more compressible and are flatter etc.
But this is really ongoing research and I think this is one of the most important questions to understand right now is like why does scale rigorously speaking produce a simplicity bias and can we get that bias in a more elegant
Combining scientific understanding with engineering details
way than just building bigger models. I was going to ask you, are you a theory? Because I know you're a theory guy. Are you a theory guy or an engineer? Presumably, you're both, but you know, deep in your bones. Are you an engineer or are you a scientist? It's really hard to choose. In some sense both. I'm mostly driven by trying to understand things. And so, this can be done in a variety of ways. A lot of our papers empirically try to understand model behavior. And so I feel like this is a scientific approach to to machine learning. And one thing that really motivates me about this type of approach is whatever you learn will never go obsolete. So quite often newcomers to the field and even you know very experienced researchers feel distressed at the rapid pace in the discipline where you see methods getting published at a conference and then becoming obsolete within a month or when you go to the conference everything you're seeing is sort of you know been replaced by some other algorithm and
wonder okay well is there any point to me sort of investing myself significantly in building a model if I know that it's not going to be used by anyone for any long period of time. And I think one way to address that is really to try to combine what you're doing with an understanding of why things are working. So if you're building a model that gets better performance on some problem, there's a reason for that. And if you can understand the reason for that, that understanding will outlive that specific model and how widely it might be used.
And I'm really hoping to do research that will be relevant in hundreds of years from now. And so I think these questions around model selection for example in AAM's razor people will never stop asking like hopefully they'll be able to go back and read not just my work but like work that's been done in this space and think okay this is useful to me in thinking about how to approach some of these questions and so in this respect I would say I'm a scientist and I try to combine classical theory with empiricism towards understanding model behavior and I think if you really understand something hopefully it's something that you and demonstrate in practice. And so I also try to combine some sort of practical demonstration with a lot of the work that I do. Um, and this process also involves engineering. And sometimes understanding those low-level engineering details becomes really fascinating and leads to unexpected intuitions about the principles behind model construction. I think this is something that's perhaps
underappreciated. Um, like quite often you can have a great idea and whether it works or not depends very significantly on all the low-level details like numerical stability and other things like that. And when you get really deep into those details, sometimes you can discover things at a higher level that are also very significant and how we should think about model construction and algorithm design. Very cool. Well, maybe um well, I was just going to share with you there's a a duality that Shannon pointed out that uh that you you may like and you know it's a duality between uh past future uh knowledge and control. He said um he said uh we have no knowledge of the future but we can control it. We have knowledge of the past but we cannot control it. And and I took that and related it to science and engineering.
So the way I look at the two sides of that coin is scientists leverage control to gain knowledge. Engineers leverage knowledge to gain control. So you can be both because the the new knowledge that you collect allows you to better control the environment, the future, the world, and collect even more learning. Right. Absolutely beautiful. Andrew, we haven't even introduced you yet. Can you can you can you tell the audience about yourself?
So I'm Andrew Wilson. I'm a professor at the Kuran Institute of Mathematical Sciences and Center for Data Science at New York University. My work focuses on having a prescription for how to build intelligent systems. What are the key principles involved in model construction? I think although the field has made an extraordinary amount of empirical progress towards building more performant machine learning systems, we're still at early stages of understanding, you know, what principles should we broadly embrace when we're approaching our own problems. And so this involves work on understanding inductive biases. So what assumptions we should be making. And so this relates to symmetries like equavariances. Maybe we're modeling molecules or rotation variant. Images could be translation variant. How do we represent those invariances? How do we learn them automatically? Um how do we discover interpretable scientific structure in our data that tells us something maybe surprising that we didn't know before that will go beyond a particular application? How do we represent uncertainty towards decision-m?
Arguably, a prediction uh that's just a point estimate without any kind of error bars associated with it isn't really actionable in the real world. Um you know, if you have a an autonomous car and it says there's a stop sign 5t ahead plus or - 10,000 ft, you can't really do anything with that information. But if it's plus or - 1 foot, then you can really act on that information. And you know observing that almost makes you paranoid like okay now I really need to represent uncertainty because if I don't have that uncertainty then you know machine learning can't meaningfully engage with the real world and basian methods I think are a really great way of reasoning about uncertainty and so that also forms a big part of my research program.
Amazing. Well welcome to MLST. We have Dr. Dugar in the house. the first time we've met in person for we've been doing this for eight years. Yeah. Five years on this channel, but we had the previous channel as well. Yeah. And uh Keith came to my to my wedding on on Friday. It's good to have you here, man. Yeah. It's pretty crazy. We haven't met until now. It's It's going to be a blast. Absolutely. Yeah, we've got some good stuff lined up. Um well, um I guess just to kick this off, Andrew, I was inspired by geometric deep learning. Um I interviewed, you know, like Michael Bronstein, Taka Cohen, Juan Bruner, Peta Vilichovich. They had this geometric deep learning blueprint. Our video on that did half a million views. It was it was an amazing uh video. And the basic hypothesis as as Jan um outlined the three curses in um in machine learning, right? So there's the statistical curse which is that you only have so many data points and the distance to those data points, you know, or the density of those data points is kind of cursed by the dimensionality of your data. There's the um the optimization curse which is that you get stuck in these local
minima. And there's the approximation curse. And this is kind of where they were driving to that you you have this function class and and you can be quite opinionated in how you structure that function class. But if you make it too small, you you incur approximation error where the actual test sample is, you know, some epsilon distance from from the approximation class. And they said that all of these things are cursed. And I guess their prescription was this platonistic idea that if we constrain the models, so if we add bias to the models with these symmetries because the generating function of the universe is using these symmetries anyway, then there's no apparent approximation error in doing so. So why wouldn't we do it anyway? I think your your ideas are are kind of tangentially related to that.
You still think we should have biases,
Soft constraints and double descent explain scale
but you you also think we can have our cake and eat it, so to speak. Mhm. So this is a wonderful question and I've also done a fair amount of work on geometric deep learning particularly in terms of how we should represent equarian symmetries in scientific domains and I agree that it's very appealing to say well if we know that some constraint applies to our problem then we should encode it in our model and I don't think that's particularly controversial. Well, there are some perhaps surprising results that in some instances even when you know what the constraint is, you can do as well or better when you don't represent that constraint and this can do this can be due to the dynamics of how you train your model etc. Um but generally the way I would respond to this is um really to say two things. The first is there aren't that many instances in practice where we know exactly what constraints we want to have even when it comes to things like physical conservation laws.
So rarely are we modeling for instance closed systems. You can have a dynamical system and maybe you have like a pendulum with like wind in the air or whatever and now you have some sort of violation of of conservation of energy. And so you want to perhaps instead build models that are just biased towards these constraints without being exactly constrained. Secondly, when you do this, when you represent so-called approximate constraints or you have soft constraints, so you have a model which is very flexible, but it says, well, if we can fit the data in a particular way, then we want to do that. Quite often, it will just collapse down onto those constraints if it provides a consistent explanation of what we observe. And so, if you're paying any kind of penalty for deviating from those constraints and you can perfectly explain your data with those constraints, you'll just collapse down onto that. And so I think as a prescription for model construction, it's often going to be fruitful to try to ex embrace expressiveness, but at the same time have a simplicity bias which can be formalized in terms of
compression. And this is really an honest representation of our beliefs in many cases. Like another way to describe my philosophy for model construction is just honestly represent your beliefs. And we believe the real world is a complicated place. And if we combine that belief with the idea that simple solutions that are consistent with our observations are more likely to be true, then we can often see desirable behavior in quite a variety of different settings. And so in terms of like having cake and eating it too, I think one of
3 Highlight · Larger models alleviate overfitting via simplicity bias
the most surprising findings that that we and and others have had is that quite often you can increase model expressiveness while simultaneously increasing its biases. So larger models are often more inclined towards simple solutions. And there sort of demonstrations of this that have been just hiding in plain sight like double descent. this idea that as you increase model flexibility, your generalization error first gets lower. So your it improves as you capture more structure in the data. It gets worse as you start to overfitit and then it gets better again. And in that second descent, typically all of the different models that you're considering are fitting the training data perfectly. So the only possible way that larger models could be generalizing better is because they have some other sort of bias like a simplicity bias rather than being more expressive. And so I think time and again researchers express surprise at the fact that they can have these
massive models, billion parameter plus models trained on relatively small data sets that aren't overfitting. But in fact actually if they've made the models even bigger they would be less likely to overfit. And so quite often expressiveness and soft constraints can
be aligned. So if parameters don't solve your problem, you're not using enough of them. We always want more. Prediction with expert advice, we know theoretically and and for me empirically that by keeping all of these other experts around in the mixture, you pay a cost for that.
The bias-variance trade-off is a misnomer
So in my particular case, having the historical experts in the mixture, every single prediction, they still had some weight. you have to give them some epsilon weight because otherwise they would die and that actually harms your performance. So the question is, is it better for you when the new regime comes to pay the cost of learning the regime versus the switching cost of bringing the old regime back? And that's kind of the same with any ensemble or any um set of restrictions on biases really that there's this fundamental trade-off between bias and variance. And it feels like you're saying you can have your cake and eat it and you can keep them in the mixture and you still win. And that just goes against most people's intuition. So I think the bias variance trade-off is an incredible misnomer.
There doesn't actually have to be a trade-off. So the idea I guess behind the classical bias variance trade-off is that your generalization error can be compartmentalized in these two terms. So um bias sort of how well uh you uh are fitting the data essentially uh and variance like how your fits vary depending on uh uh like if you sample different points from this distribution that you're trying to model. Um and it's true that sometimes if you naively build like a really large polomial for example you can have low bias and high variance whereas if you build a small polinomial maybe you have low variance and high bias. Um, however, approaches like ensembling are actually a good way of getting low bias and low variance. And it turns out actually building large neural nets are another way of getting both low bias and low variance, you actually have flexibility combined with a simplicity bias. Uh, and this is
what's leading to good generalization. And it's sort of another perspective on double descent. I think here's here's the way I'll put the question is uh and I ran into this as a practitioner you know back in the day so maybe I was just stuck in the hump of having like too many but not enough parameters you know to to get to the double descent phase I'm not sure but I mean you know the what I experience is that you know having parameters in a model even if they're very very small because some you know I put in some term in the objective function that forced them to be small is not the same thing as actually the simpler model that just didn't have them at Right. Like I mean like we kind of you know we'll talk about marginalization and kind of the basian basian perspective on that. So like overfitting can be a real problem. So for example you brought up you know conservation.
It's like well if I'm doing a model and I don't enforce conservation of energy and then as a result I end up with some small parameters that cause like a little bit of feedback and increasing you know energy every single time a robot you know takes some action that can cause it to like spin out of control right where I actually did need it to conserve energy and not have that that positive feedback. So I guess I guess maybe we're still struggling with you know overfitting can be a problem. It's a real problem. It's a known problem.
How do we know if we're overfitting in a bad way? We maybe haven't don't have enough parameters. We're stuck in kind of the the area before we got to double descent or like how do you in practice avoid the actual consequences of bad overfitting, right? So overfitting is real absolutely but the conventional wisdom about how we should approach it I think is fundamentally misguided. So, and this is rooted in things like the bias variance trade-off like let's constrain our hypothesis space so that we can't have a bad fit to the data that will make bad predictions and so on. Whereas instead, I think if we just embrace the honest belief that there are many possible solutions even if they're not probable for any given problem combined with this sort of simplicity bias, we won't tend to overfit. And interestingly, the prescription is almost the opposite of what people think it it perhaps should be in principle. like build a smaller model is usually the the princ the the sort of the the
prescription for avoiding overfitting but or to enforce simplicity.
4 Highlight · Double descent shows bigger models alleviate overfitting
Exactly. Yeah. Whereas in fact as we build bigger models we often actually start to alleviate overfitting and and double descent is just a great example of this because that first ascent uh is is from overfitting the data but then it gets alleviated as we start to make our models bigger and bigger by some phenomenon that we still don't really fully understand like this this this ability of simplicity to start to come back into the picture as you just make it even bigger.
Right? So in that second descent, the models are typically fitting the training data perfectly. And so the loss is not really the decisive factor anymore between which models we're selecting. It's something else. And so
those other biases start to dominate. And so this is actually really important, I think, when people talk about phenomena like flatness. So flatness is this idea that if you perturb your parameters that you can still get a relatively low value of the loss. And there are all sorts of debates about like the the role of flatness and how relevant it ought to be and understanding generalization etc. But I think what a lot of these discussions miss is it's just one of many properties that control generalization. And so if I had to choose between a model that has very high loss but it's very flat versus like a very flat solution versus a model that that finds a solution that's low loss that's that's um relatively sharp.
I would almost certainly choose the low loss solution. And so when you're in that kind of second descent regime, you now are controlling for the value of the loss and it's just the flatness of the solutions that's increasing. And so, uh, that's sort of one way of knowing maybe like what side of the the the the curve that you're on and thinking about how big should you make your model. But I would also just say make your model always as big as possible. Um, just try to combine what you're doing with some sort of simplicity or a compression bias. And there's a question of like how you do that, but I think there are good um, good ways that we have of thinking
Real-world data distribution and Bayesian deep ensembles
about how to do that. Trick question. Is predictive power the same as understanding? I agree with the idea that representation matters. Representation meaning sort of how you're solving the problem even if you're getting the same performance in a particular application. But the reason it matters is because different representations that are achieving the same performance might give you different performance than on different problems. And so if we're trying to build more general agents, we want to understand what sorts of representations are going to provide a better general description of the real world. And so that means we want to avoid things like shortcut learning and so on if it's just going to lead to good predictions in some contrived problem and not really in the real world. And so there's this question of like can we understand what sorts of distribution shifts we might typically encounter and can we build methods that have broadly more robustness to a variety of different types of realistic
distribution shifts. And I think this connects to things like no free lunch sort of thinking. So the no free lunch theorems say that every model is equally good in expectation over all problems sampled uniformly from a distribution over all problems. And there are other no freelance theorems that say no single learner can be good on all problems. The issue I think with these theorems is not their mathematical validity. What they're saying is correct under the assumptions they're making, but rather that the assumptions they're making are not a good description of the real world. So the real world is a small corner of all possible data sets. It's not drawn uniformly from a distribution of all possible problems. If we were to do that, we would mostly just get noise.
And so the question then is to what extent is the structure across real world problems shared and at what level of abstraction can we represent that shared structure. And so my contention is that the distribution over real world data is biased towards local mgraph complexity and so are some of the the models that we started to to develop. Yeah. But can you give an example of where it was hard to confront a misconception, why it mattered and what the process involved?
Deep ensembles actually approximate Bayesian inference better
5 Highlight · Deep ensembles are superior Bayesian approximations
There had been this sort of approach where you would take some approximate basian inference procedure and pit it against deep ensembles as the non-basian alternative. And um normally I actually don't care that much about what's being called basian or not. Like it's same with like intelligence, what is int like whether something's a good representation all these things. Let's just connect this to whatever problem we're trying to solve. But this was actually kind of problematic because the takeaway seemed to be that if deep ensembles were working better than some lelass approximation or some MCMC procedure then the answer is to be non-basian to be less basian than than we have been historically. And that's turned out to be exactly the wrong sort of directionality for how we should think about model construction because for a given computational budget those deep ensemble procedures were actually doing a much better job of uh approximating the posterior basian predictive distribution. So doing marginalization and so in fact the prescription should have been well we
actually need to be more basian. And so like this was sort of a frustrating thing but it was also very difficult to um to approach because there had been so many papers where people had just written basically that these deep ensembles are the non-basian alternative. And so kind of coming out
and saying well actually they're doing a better approximation of the basian ideal than all these methods that are being called basian is sort of you know confronting you know uh just sort of hundreds of papers in some sense at once. Um but it felt like a very important thing to do. Um, and we had actually done it subtly in a lot of papers where there'd be some subsection of some paper that mentioned something like this, but that was never really internalized because it was never front and center. So I thought, okay, a blog post is the right way to do this. Um, and let's make it all about this. And uh, I think in the end actually it was the blog post that changed people's minds. I I never saw a paper after that where people were making this
Soft biases match hard constraints with better expressiveness
separation. Um, but also I think you know it did it did sort of strike a nerve a little bit. Yeah. But how should we approach model construction? How can we embrace expressiveness without overfitting? And so when I say I want to embrace expressiveness, uh there is some some subtlety associated with that idea. And that basically means that it in some cases maybe we're wanting to represent lots of solutions but we're assigning them almost zero probability but not zero probability. So they're possible but not plausible solutions in our view.
And then if the data is telling us something that like well actually we really should be paying attention to certain type of structure that maybe
6 Highlight · Soft constraints perform as well as hard constraints
would surprise us the model can actually respond to that. And if that structure isn't actually there then your model isn't going to perform a lot worse than the model that is exactly constrained in those ways. In terms of how we should approach model construction in general, if you have a soft bias, a gentle encouragement towards certain types of constraints over others, quite often you can do as well as the perfectly constrained models. And the reason is you're paying some sort of penalty, even if it's small, for deviating from that constraint. So if you can fit the data perfectly with the constraint, you'll just collapse down onto that model. And we noticed this in a work we had called residual pathway prior for soft equavarian constraints. And so this was a basian mechanism essentially to have a distribution over solutions which would be concentrated in some way around certain types of equivariance constraints. Just for the the sake of the audience equariance is a generalization of invariance. Uh it basically means if you have some
transformation t f of txals t of f ofx rather than f of txals f ofx um like a cnn for example. So it it it commutes in that case with the translation. Exactly. Right? So if you translate the image in some way the the pattern of activations will translate in the same way across the different layers um rather than them just staying exactly the same which would be invariance. Um so in this paper on residual pathway prior we were interested in the strength of this soft bias. So we basically had a distribution over neural net parameters that had a coariance matrix that lived in some equivarian subspace of our choice plus some orthogonal complement.
And so there'd be these waiting terms basically that would represent you know how strong do we want this bias to be for equarians. And surprisingly to us at the time it didn't matter very much like if as long as you had a very soft bias for the the constraint it would often be as good as even a perfectly constrained model. basically for this reason that you know you're still paying some penalty for deviating from the constraint and so if it is a good description of the data you can fit it perfectly then you often collapse down onto that constraint although I wouldn't want to dismiss the importance of trying
to calibrate these biases it it can matter in certain instances but in a lot of instances uh a very gentle bias is sufficient so maybe maybe just to put this into perhaps more familiar territory for other basians out there you know like the assignment of prior just for parameters. It's always the goal to try and find a prior that's relatively ignorant but encodes some very soft, you know, type of constraint like maybe it's a a scale invariant parameter or a loca or a scale invariant prior or location and variant, you know, kind of prior.
And overall, a lot of times these priors are maybe worth like one data point or two data points, but they're small enough that they can be overridden quite easily by enough data. But even that small amount is enough to avoid sort of stupid answers like you know that that like the chance of ahead is infinity or something like that. Is it kind of analogous to that or I think that's a reasonable analogy. I would also add that we can't get away from making assumptions. So even though I'm in favor of embracing expressiveness and having relatively soft biases for certain types of solutions as opposed to hard constraints, machine learning means learning by example. And we can't do that without making assumptions. The question is just what assumptions should we be making and at what level of abstraction? And perhaps it's enough in a surprisingly large array of different problems to embrace expressiveness in combination with some sort of simplicity. some AAM's razor bias that can be formalized in terms of
compression.
Expressive models can still possess strong simplicity biases
Empirically, um, simple models work better. Ironically, given the surprise people often express at this idea of wanting to always embrace flexibility is that like before deep learning, the community had started to come on board with this notion that we want arbitrarily flexible models. In fact, the class of models that I was working on in my PhD, Gaussian processes in machine learning were um kind of inspired by this idea that we want really really large neural nets. And Radford Neil, a statistician uh at Toronto at the time, working in Jeff Hinton's group, was saying, okay, we want to build models the size of a house and I'm a basian and I'm going to really embrace expressiveness. So, I'm going to take an infinite limit of a neural net with an infinite number of hidden units and this is going to converge actually to a Gaussian process using a central limit theorem argument with a particular type of coariance function. People thought, oh, well, that's amazing. Let's just use Gaussian processes because they're so much more principled in a lot of other ways like they're less sensitive to a bunch of design decisions, etc. they can be written in you know a very small number of lines of code and everyone anywhere
in the world is going to get basically the same answer etc and so people sort of moved in this direction of just embracing expressiveness but then once we started working in these kernel formulations I think people perhaps started to forget that there was this dual space correspondence and we actually were working with models that were more flexible than any neural net you can fit in memory and finding we were achieving very good generalization especially on problems with a relatively small number of data points. So now to to get back to your question, um Radford Neil also had an interesting quote I believe in his PhD thesis that whenever you have a simple model that performs well, you can always build a more complicated model around it that will perform even better. And he gives this example of handwritten character recognition where you might have irregular writing styles, weird ink blotss on the stage on on the page. Uh just some sort of structure that you probably haven't already accommodated in your model that you can try to accommodate and you'll achieve better and better performance. So what I would do in this situation you described is really try to understand what's the
inductive bias there that's leading to good performance and how can I soften it in some way? How can I generalize this in a way that still honestly represents my beliefs? So, but there there seems to be something wrong with with this quote that you can always build a more complex model because uh maybe you can always build a more complex model that has a higher likelihood on the training data. But overfitting is a real phenomenon. Like nothing in your work says that overfitting doesn't occur and can be harmful. So it's like there have to be situations where if you diverge from the ground truth model. I mean I'm sure I could just build a system that has a ground truth model simulate data and provably show that a more complex inference doesn't generalize as well.
So that has to be true. So how do we know in reality when we've stepped too far? It's a great question. I think we have to be careful about what we mean when we say a complex model. So I think most people would not consider Gaussian processes with an RBF coariance function just the standard coariance function kernel that's often used to be a complex model but it's highly expressive. So it's more expressive than any neural network we can fit in memory. It just has very very strong preferences for certain types of solutions over others and this enables it to be extraordinarily data efficient. So one of the main use cases these days for Gaussian processes is in something called basian optimization where you're trying to maximize some sort of blackbox objective. So it's not something you have a closed form expression for like it could be generalization performance of a neural net as a function of some of its hyperparameters for instance or some really costly physical simulation as a function of some parameters and you basically want to query this objective as few times as possible in order to achieve a good result. Gaussian processes are an amazing surrogate model for this objective and you use the
uncertainty to do the exploration efficiently. So I think that you can have expressive models that aren't necessarily complex. Uh they still have very strong simplicity biases, very strong preferences for certain types of solutions over others, but at the same time they're representing a wide array of possible solutions to the problem. And I think that's how you can kind of reconcile what Radford Neil was saying with what we see in practice around things like overfitting. So I think there's a common misconception that the expressiveness of a model and its inductive biases are at odds with each other. uh the more expressive the model the weaker its assumptions in some sense like the the fewer inductive biases it has the less data efficient it will be etc. And what we found which has been quite exciting is that the larger you make say big transformers actually the stronger its inductive biases like the
models get both more expressive and they have a stronger simplicity bias and so I think you can expand these two things together in some
Large models implicitly approximate Solomonov induction
sense and this is how you can avoid say overfitting and other sorts of issues with not achieving very good generalization and I think one of the the clearest demonstration ations of this is in a phenomenon called double descent. Uh so double descent is this phenomenon where uh typically on the horizontal axis you have the expressiveness of the model the number of units for example in each layer of a residual neural network and on the vertical axis you have generalization error. And so initially generalization error decreases as you increase the expressiveness of the model and it's able to just fit the data better and capture more structure. And then it starts to decrease. it starts to go up and that corresponds to some sort of overfitting and then it decreases again and that's why it's called second double descent because of that second descent and in that second descent all the models typically have about zero training loss. So the training loss just keeps going down as you increase the expressiveness of the model until roughly the number of parameters equals the number of data points. Um, and what
that means is that the larger models in that second descent cannot be generalizing better because they're more flexible. They're all fitting the training data perfectly. It has to be that the larger models have some sort of bias which is enabling better generalization. And turns out that this is a simplicity bias, a compression bias that we can measure. Yeah, let's talk through that a little bit. So as I understand your thesis is that there is some kind of generating function of the universe and in some sense it's it's quite simple. France talks about this. He talks about the kaleidoscope effect that you know we have the generating function and then it gets composed together in a myriad of different ways and we see the kaleidoscope and intelligent people can decompose the kaleidoscope back into the original generating function. and and you've also said that natural data in particular is is quite lowdimensional or quite simple and that neural networks prefer simple data and even that I want to take a slight issue of that because what I what I find is that neural networks in the early stages of training
prefer simple data and when you continue to train them they they seem to complexify and complexify and learn more high frequency data. So how how does how how do you think about that? It's a great question. So it's a really important observation that neural nets tend to learn structure before they learn noise and things like this. There's a question around to what extent being able to fit noise is hurting their generalization capabilities. So there's this other phenomenon called benign overfitting where the model fits typically a mixture of signal and noise but the noise being fitting the noise doesn't significantly degrade its generalization performance.
And this is often seen as something that's specific to deep learning. And in the face of everything that we know about generalization and that's partly because classical frameworks for trying to understand generalization like VC dimension and rat macro complexity are essentially measuring a model's ability to fit noise. However, there are other generalization frameworks like packbays and countable hypothesis bounds that we explore which don't penalize an expressive hypothesis space and instead try to understand what sorts of soft preferences the model has for certain solutions over others. And we've been able to achieve fairly tight bounds on the generalization performance of these large models using something called a Solomonov prior. And so a solomonov prior says that we actually have a maximally overp parameterized model. We can represent every possible program on a computer but we have exponentially stronger preferences for solutions with that have what are called called lowcom
complexity and so they're very compressible. The komograph complexity is the the shortest possible program that can generate our hypothesis. And the fact that we're able to get these tight generalization bounds for these very large models and in fact the models get sort of better uh uh sorry that the generalization bounds get better as we make the models larger um suggests that this is not a bad description of how these models are actually behaving. So um doing induction with a Solomon of prior is called Solomon of induction. And so um it seems that when we make these transformers for instance very large we're combining this
Loss landscape geometry drives the implicit simplicity bias
expressiveness with this strong preference for local macro complexity solutions. Another observation that's that's been made is that models are becoming increasingly general purpose. And so 20 or 30 years ago, the typical prescription was to encode as much expert knowledge as possible into the model you're constructing and tailor it very specifically to the problem that you're considering because of results like the no free lunch theorems that say that every model is equally good in expectation over all problems sampled uniformly from this distribution over all problems. Um there are several no free lunch theorems. Another one says that a single learner is not going to be good on all problems. Now, these results are mathematically correct, but they don't really correspond to the real world data generating distribution. The real world is a small corner of all possible data sets. It's not drawn uniformly from that distribution. If you were to draw data sets from that distribution, you would mostly get noise. And so, I guess the question is,
well, what what is the real world data generating distribution really like? And it seems like there is a bias towards generating data with lowgrav complexity and our models share that bias and this is why we've seen increasingly general systems. So we've moved from feature engineering basically hard coding structure into our models uh to more modality specific models and architectures. So convolutional neural nets for vision, recurrent neural nets for sequences, language etc.
um MLPS for tabular data and regression to transformers for almost everything. And so this isn't to say that transformers have achieved general intelligence. Absolutely not. But they're relatively speaking more general than the predecessors. And we have seen this kind of movement towards increasingly general models. And our contention is that this has been made possible by aligning with the real world data generating distribution which seems to have a bias for lowcom complexity.
And we had this paper on um no free lunch theorems inductive biases and come complexity. And I think one of the most surprising findings in that paper was that um convolutional neural nets which were clearly designed for image recognition. And so they have locality and translation echo variance and so on provably have inductive biases for tabular data shaped as an image and the only possible reason that could be the case is because they both sort of share this bias for lowcom complexity and that bias gets stronger as we make the model bigger.
Okay. So I I have actually two questions about this. Um and it's about the kgarov complexity. So I think if I heard you correctly on the one hand you're saying that just stock neural network training of today so just transformers SGD batchorm whatever people are doing seems to empirically exhibit bias towards lower kgav complexity models and this shows up by their generalization kind of falling within you know this bound you know that you found and then you also mentioned kgav induction which I I believe would be explicitly introducing, you know, a kind of penalty term or a risk term, an objective part of the objective function that has to do with Kgrov complexity and kind of maybe pushing the model a little bit further towards you know simple I think you're talking about both. Um so maybe if you could elaborate and also uh you know where is this this bias towards simplicity coming from like everybody knows the algorithms like which part of the algorithm is is inducing this
simplicity bias is it because we're using floatingoint numbers IE E or what like where's it coming from this is largely an open question although there are some intuitions and this is something I'm really excited about pursuing further in my research where does the simplicity bias especially from scale originate there are some intuitions. So geometric intuitions around the loss landscapes for the objectives that we use to train these models. And so um when we're sort of minimizing training loss, we can try to geometrically understand the properties of this landscape that we're minimizing. So it's been observed for instance that flat solutions, meaning solutions where you can perturb the parameters by some amount but retain low training loss, tend to generalize better than sharp solutions that have the same value of the loss. And you could make a compressibility argument for why that's the case. Flat solutions don't need to be represented with as much precision and so they're more compressible.
As you grow the size of these neural nets, the relative volume of these flat solutions starts to exponentially dominate the volume of the sharp solutions. And so you can imagine horistically why is that? I mean do we know why or just it's just an empirical observation? Yes. So we know why to some extent but it's our understanding is is somewhat horistic. And so you could imagine for instance having a region of the loss surface with radius RA that's flat. So you perturb your parameters within that radius and you have a low value of the loss and another region with RB that that's that's you know or RB is much less than RA.
Now as you grow the number of parameters in your model D RA to the D starts to really dominate relative to RB to the D. M
7 Highlight · Full-batch gradient descent achieves comparable generalization to SGD
and we seem to observe this in practice. So there was a result not from from my group um from Tom Goldstein's group at the University of Maryland where they were trying to understand the role of the implicit biases of SGD and stochastic optimization in generalization. And so quite often uh as you perhaps have alluded to SGD is often thought to be a really integral component of achieving generalization in deep learning. There's this idea that we have these very complicated objectives that we're minimizing that are very non-convex etc. and SGD somehow saves us. That the implicit biases of SGD navigate our procedure through some region of the loss landscape that represents low loss solutions that do generalize rather than low loss solutions that don't generalize. Well, um well, it turns out you can actually do full batch gradient descent and achieve pretty comparable generalization to what you would get if you're using SGD even if you don't try to make that
implicit regularization explicit in the loss. And there was another paper that showed that if you even do guess and check, so you just randomly sample your solution vector and then stop when your loss is below a certain threshold, the generalization will also be fairly comparable to what you get if you use SGD or atom. And so that corresponds to this geometric intuition. If you're just sort of throwing darts at the loss landscape and then you stop as soon as you have loss below a certain threshold, you're much more likely to be in this region of low loss and good generalization than low loss and bad generalization as you increase the
Transformers struggle with out-of-distribution primitive operations
number of parameters in the model. Now, this is not an airtight argument. So, there are lots of ways that you can increase parameters in models and not really influence the geometric properties of the loss landscape. However, it does seem to correspond to what we observe empirically and um not just in terms of results like guess and check. If we look at something like double descent in that second descent, we can measure something called the effect of dimensionality of these models. So that's the number of relatively large values of the hessen which is sort of the number of sharp directions essentially in the loss landscape. And so that that decreases as as we as we make the model bigger.
So interesting. And to the second question about explicitly introducing you know a penalty term for a koma grav complexity have you done much of that looked into that is that useful or just not necessary it's something I've been thinking about it's very hard to operationalize so you can evaluate these bounds by computing an upper bound on come complexity measuring the compressed file size of your model after training.
Mh. But in order to use that prior as some sort of regularizer, you would need to be considering sort of compression of some whole set of different hypotheses, not just a single hypothesis that's found by the model. And so there's an open question of how you could try to operationalize that like Solomon of induction is sort of an represents an idealized learning system. It's not something that we can really do exactly in practice. It seems that neural nets are sort of approximating it and that's evidenced by these bounds and how they're able to tightly characterize generalization behavior of these models.
But um it it's hard to sort of turn into into some kind of regularizer. Uh I'm also interested in how we can go beyond things like grav complexity. So um come graph complexity doesn't distinguish between incompressibility due to randomness um so like noise for example in our data versus structural complexity and Scott Aronson actually had a really interesting blog post related to this about 10 or so years ago uh where he was imagining a system he had this kind of physics analogy where you have coffee and cream and initially they're separated liquids and you start to stir them together and as you do this the entropy of this system is increasing.
I've seen that one. That was shared on our Discord recently. Oh, very nice. Okay. Um and join our Discord. I'd love to. Yeah. Um we actually have a Yeah. Do I get ahead of myself? We have an idea of course for how we can do this, but um so the the blog post uh sort of compares this to so the entropy of the system is increasing. The comra complexity is increasing. But the intuitive sophistication of that system is kind of non-monotonic. Initially it has low entropy, low sophistication.
then sort of intermediate sophistication and entropy and then again sort of like sorry and then high entropy and kind of low sophistication. And so you can think of this in machine in a machine learning context in terms of reasoning about the value of data. So if I sample data from like a uniform random uniform distribution that's going to be very incompressible. I'm going to need to memorize it. It's sort of uncorrelated. This could be useless for learning a representation for training my model. I could alternatively imagine some sort of sophisticated cellular automa problem, some sort of game of life problem with very sophisticated generalization rule or generation rules. Um that data actually could have an extraordinary amount of value for learning a representation. Um there was a paper that looked at something briefly like this called intelligence at the edge of chaos. And I think there are other results like that that are coming out that like you actually might want to train your models on this data with a lot of structural complexity even if you really want you know in the end the model has some kind of aams razor bias etc. Um, and so we've been thinking about kind of measures of information
that might compartmentalize structural complexity and random complexity. And this will help us reason better about the value of data and developing priors sort of that are like Solomon prior but might actually be more directly addressing the type of incompressibility that we're interested in. Yeah. I mean, so you said you said so many interesting things. I mean, first of all, um, to Keith's point, you were saying that this isn't a penalty term yet. Your hypothesis is that neural networks implicitly do this kind of um compression which might be correlated or related to this chromograph complexity.
So many folks just kind of um they equate intelligence with compression and when I spoke with David Krakow he took umbrage with that. He said you know compression is a component of of intelligence but there are so many other things going on as well and certainly when we look at things like the arc challenge um there are so many possible solutions. So a naive heristic of just selecting the simplest program isn't always the best thing to do. There are many possible selections you could make and you know so so you you you um demonstrated this upper bound which used this complexity term and in a sense that's saying that um it could be no worse than this rather than it could be but it could actually be so much better.
And our empirical experience of deep learning models is that they they seem you know we call it shortcut learning basically you know they they seem to have found some superficial generalizing thing which does all the things you said when you mentioned the no free lunch theorem. So you could take a CNN and you could use it on tabular data you could take a transformer and you could use it on audio data. So it's almost like what we've seen is that we've we've hit this for want of a better word local minimum and it feels like we need something more to get to the real understanding of some of these problems. Does does that make sense?
So is compression intelligence? I think this is a big debate right now. I think it is very closely associated with intelligence in a lot of ways. If we can compress our data really effectively, then in order to do that, we're discovering regularities that are typically going to help enable generalization. And in some sense, physical laws, for example, or a great compressed representation of reality. And so I think that compression is really intricately connected with what we mean when we talk about building intelligent systems. There are instances in which this can go very wrong like in shortcut learning where for instance you might have some spirious correlation like maybe every time there's a blue pixel in an image the label is a bird or something like this and so the model you know forgets about the foreground and it just looks for some feature in the background in terms of generalizing on that distribution that's actually not a bad idea that actually is the right thing to do so aams razor is really a good principle but if we go out of distribution so we see like a bird in
you know with a volcano or something behind it or in a room um then you know it's not going to arrive at the right label. So there's this question of like are there other principles of induction that will lead to greater robustness under distribution shifts. I think in general aam's razor still is the right thing to do. Like there are many cases where a compression will actually not give you what you want more broadly if you move beyond that distribution. But in absence of additional information, it seems like you can't really do better as a guess as to what's the right strategy. And so I still think AAM's razor is a very robust principle of induction and perhaps one answer is just more data. I think this will work well in some cases and not in others. Uh so
Learning fundamental primitives inside transformers
we have some work in progress on trying to build transformers for matrix operations. So this is actually kind of analogous to the work that people have done on transformers for multiplication, addition, things like this. So uh I guess you know these systems LLM seem very impressively effective in some instances uh in being able to write and code and uh solve a variety of different problems we didn't really expect them to be able to solve.
Uh in other instances they're just shockingly bad. Um so you know how many Rs are in strawberry like all reversing strings counting and just basic addition and multiplication etc. And so there's this debate I I think about whether we should be giving them tools to do those things. Like why not just give them a calculator? I mean whatever they learn um to do in terms of adding and multiplying numbers is still not going to be as efficient as giving them access to to a calculator. Um so why don't we just do that? um or like you know is there some sort of greater value in having to sort of learn a representation that can do some of these things because maybe even though we'll always want to use a calculator if we're multiplying or adding numbers being able to do something like that reasonably well might transfer into other settings that we don't really anticipate and I'm probably more in this category like I just think intellectually we should try to figure out how to do this without tools and so this work that we're doing on transformers for matrix operations I think is quite analogous so You could
argue that addition and multiplication are just fundamental primitives for trying to build intelligent systems. We're not as good at it as a calculator is, but it might be important for us to have some ability at being able to do these things. The same could be said of matrix operations. This is really the backbone of all sorts of different learning algorithms like Gaussian processes, which we discussed a little involve solving linear systems with a coariance matrix, computing log determinance, etc. degenerative models like normalizing flows involve log determinance um dimensionality reduction like PCA etc involve other matrix operations and so they're just really ubiquitous as kind of a primitive for trying to build learning algorithms and intelligent systems and so I think if
8 Highlight · Training transformers to generalize on matrix operations
transformers are ultimately going to become some sort of general intelligence then they ought to be able to to be competent at these types of operations and so we were kind of representing then matrices is as sequences of numbers and then having the outputs be things like the maximum iggon value or you know solution to a linear system or whatever other operation we were considering that the spectrum of igon values and we found interestingly that when you train this approach on Gaussian random matrices so you just sample every entry of the matrix from a standard normal distribution. It will do fairly well at in distribution matrix operations. So other matrices sample from that distribution that it hasn't seen before but extraordinarily poorly even if you go slightly outside of that distribution. So give it an identity matrix all ones on the diagonal zero everywhere else that'll have pretty low density has support under this Gaussian distribution where matrices but pretty low density under it hasn't seen something very much like that it will
just completely fail. uh it won't do anything reasonable. And so we considered a number of interventions like blooping sort of adaptive test time computation um enriching the training distribution very significantly. So having sort of this like in some um uh space of structured matrices that we were sampling from so all sorts of different matrix structures to toplets chronicer etc block diagonal low rank um and a variety of other interventions.
And interestingly, we found once we had done that, this approach actually was able to generalize even to matrices that were out of distribution for this fairly rich sort of training set that we've created. And so it seemed to move more towards learning an algorithm rather than just doing statistical interpolation on the training data. And so this is I'm an
optimist by nature. So I I am very happy about the fact that we can use data to move towards things like algorithm discovery, but now I remember why I started talking about this. So I think there are instances where it's going to be hard. So autonomous driving is is an example where like you have outliers, but they're different each time. So just training on the outliers isn't going to be useful because they're going to be new outliers that look very different from those outliers. And I just have the intuition that more data alone is not really the answer to building robust autonomous driving systems.
Yeah. I just want to say um as far as why not just give them tools. I mean my answer folks is because those have to be programmed and built by people. And the whole point here is to allow machines to do their own programming right machine learning. And if they can't if they can't even learn to do multiplication reliably and to generalize from decimal multiplication to binary or hexodimal and nine digits to 36 digits, you know, what hope do we have that they're going to discover relativity or non-newtonian mechanics or any other kind of frontier frontier things, right? I mean, isn't that part of the goal here?
Absolutely. And I think being able to do certain things well, we're finding might surprisingly relate to doing other things very well. And so I think we have
Text pre-training transfers to time series and materials
seen this to a large extent with LLM. So we had a paper where we just took a text pre-trained LLM off the shelf and applied it to time series forecasting. So we did everything naively. We weren't even really intending for this to be like a proper project or a paper. We were just curious, you know, if you just give GPT like a sequence of numbers naively encoded to strings and have it extrapolate the next sequence of string tokens, um, how would it compare to purpose-built time series forecasting procedures? and it just worked way way better than we thought it could possibly work. It didn't even really make sense.
Um, and so we did sort of turn this into a proper project. We did a little bit of work on trying to improve the tokenization and think about uncertainty representation etc. But most of that paper uh it's called large language models or zeroot time series forecasters was focused around trying to understand how this is even possible. Um, and in the end it did start to feel a bit more like maybe it's not just that you can do this, maybe you should do it in some instances. Like they did quite well on on a variety of benchmarks. And to me, this suggests with like a proper dedicated research effort on LLMs for time series. You know, we could see these systems actually working a lot better than the purpose-built models.
And so what that shows is being able to predict the next words in sentences can actually transfer to being able to do other things like time series prediction really well. And we had another paper on LMS for materials generation which was kind of similar. So we took a text pre-trained LM off the shelf like a llama 2 model at the time and um we fine-tuned it in this case on atomistic data represented as text. the locations of atoms and energies and things like this. And the resulting system was able to generate inorganic crystals with favorable properties better than these purpose-built approaches and even foundation model approaches that had been trained um on that domain specific data. And so one of the takeaways from that project was like the textbased pre-training was an indispensable component in being able to achieve good results on materials generation. And we tried to understand also in that paper why that was the case. We were collaborating with some some chemists at fair in California and they were just very curious about all MMS and
foundation models. So they were willing to sort of humor us a bit and help us
9 Highlight · How text pre-training instills symmetry and invariance
sort of see what we could do but they were just like skeptical throughout the project until we we saw the results. And it's like well you can't deny the results are great you know why is this happening and part of it was that in being able to predict the next tokens in strings you are learning principles of induction like AAM's razor and so how do those sort of manifest themselves in in context learning. So what it means is if or and in fine-tuning. So what it means is these models are going to be predisposed to discovering compressible representations and that means for example salient symmetries. So this was a problem where there was a rotation invariance and these models actually were very quick to learn these kinds of invariences because of the textbased pre-training it. It sort of instilled this principle. And so I think this is also an example of how compression can be a broadly applicable principle for induction. it's at sort of the right level of abstraction that you can start to see more relatively universal behavior. So for instance, there are some theories on the success of foundation models that suggest that different problems are just different
projections of some underlying reality. So like platonic representation hypothesis is an example of this. And so you can represent an image with pixels or with words and you know train the respective models on those different modalities and they learn similar representations. I think that can be true in some instances but I also think different problems are often truly quite different from each other in terms of their low-level structure. So like if we have molecules there's rotation invariance maybe some other problem some image recognition problem like character recognition we might have translation invariance doesn't matter if the two is on the left of the screen or the right of the screen the label is still a two.
These are very different low-level feature representations. So like the architectures that you would typically use um for each of those modalities and to respect those different types of invariences would look very different. But what they have in common with each other is they're both ways to compress the respective problems that they're being applied to. So if you have a model that has this compression bias, then it can discover those salient symmetries. And we had this really surprising finding that vision transformers actually can be more translation equariant than convolutional neural nets after training. Which sounds impossible because connets by design are con are translation equivariant but they're not exactly translation equavariant because of aliasing artifacts and edge effects and things like this. And so this other model, this transformer with no explicit constraint whatsoever, just a soft bias that manifests itself increasingly at scale is able to discover a solution that has lower equavariance error than the convolutional neural net, which is just absolutely remarkable. So to come kind of full circle to your question, I
think that we're discovering more and more that being able to solve certain problems really well will translate in
perhaps unexpected ways to being able to solve other problems well. And so I think especially when it comes to things like addition and multiplication and matrix operations like these are just even like obviously like fundamental primitives for building intelligent systems like even if we can use tools for those things we want our representations to be somewhat competent
Representing uncertainty through Bayesian marginalization
at them because it's going to be useful for all sorts of other things we probably haven't anticipated. So AAM's razor has been mentioned multiple times in in our in our in the last few segments. I want to dive into that bit because I love AAM's razor and I first came to really understand it when I became a basian and it's nice to have a fellow you know arch basian uh and to talk with here because in basian inference if you will um AAM's razor has a very explicit form like mathematical form and it's marginalization right it's saying like if you have all these parameters around and you you compute the average you do this integration over all these parameters that really that's telling you like the probability of the model like given your you know full parameter space having been integrated away and that's really where you get you know let's say a penalty for complexity comes into play with with marginalization. And it's like if you make if you expand your model's flexibility or you make it more
complicated without any gain in inference well then that kind of like counts against you or without any gains of some weird simplicity in the form of you know less curvature you know things like that. And I was looking at some of your talks which were really great from from five years ago. These this basian tutorials, basian deep learning tutorials you had, I think when you first when you first went to NYU. Really enjoyed them. Um and there was a lot of talk about marginalization and the importance of it and the intuitions that you gained from that. Um, and I think but more recently that's played less of a role in the conversation or people have just given up on trying to do the integrals and they're just back to doing maximum likelihood and maybe with some hacks and the objective function. So I'm just kind of curious, you know, as a basian, your journey going from understanding like the beauty of marginalization and the aams razor built into basian inference versus what you do as a practitioner, what you see people doing in practice, how it's playing out in the field or not. And maybe is there
a future in which marginalization and doing these computational intractable integrals or something could play a role in driving like even better, you know, machine learning and inference. I'm so glad you asked. So there's almost nothing I like more than talking about basian inference. And I'm so glad you said marginalization because I feel like that's often overlooked. Like when someone says basian probably the word that comes into your most people's mind is prior and is the prior good and how do we know what would a good prior be etc and they get worried about that but really the prior is not the defining feature of what it means to be basian.
It instead being basian means that you want to represent the honest belief that you have uncertainty over what solution is correct given a finite data sample. And so if I'm trying to estimate, you know, the bias of a coin that I'm flipping, if I flip it once or twice, regardless of whether it comes up, you know, heads twice or something like this, I ought to have some uncertainty over the bias still. And that uncertainty is manifested through this procedure called marginalization. So I think we can think of regression to get some intuition of this. So we could imagine like a bunch of different points on a sort of y-x plot and maybe the points look roughly like they're on a straight line but not quite. We could also imagine that there are many different curves that will perfectly run through all of those points that all look different from each other. Some of them will be very wiggly, some of them will be slowly moving, etc. Some of them will basically just be like a straight line. And we wouldn't be able to say, well, we know with 100% certainty it's
this curve that's the right description of our problem. But that's exactly what we're doing, you know, 99 100 minus epsilon% of the time when we're training models in deep learning. That is not an honest representation of our beliefs. And it's going to become a bigger and bigger problem the more expressive our model actually is because that means there going to be many more different settings of parameters that are consistent with what we observe and we're just betting everything on one of them. And probability theory says no, that's that's just wrong. And that's not what you should be doing like the sum and product rules of probability say you should be doing marginalization. And so that's all to say that basian marginalization basically looking at all possible solutions that can be expressed by your model class weighted by their posterior probabilities is going to be most important when we have a model that's very expressive has a lot of parameters. So deep learning for example especially relative to the number of data points that we're considering. And I think often people think of it in in the opposite way that like oh maybe basian methods are most relevant in the realm of classical statistics like if you're doing some logistic regression and and you know
maybe you want to represent some uncertainty etc but it's not really really suited for deep learning. It's really the opposite. Um the challenge then is how do we do this in a way that's computationally tractable and I think like with most things in life the answer of course is nuance. So um it's not that like we can either be fully basian or not basian at all. Let's just try to do what makes sense given the resources available to us. And so like if we're just doing standard training, you can actually view that as a very crude form of marginalization where you're saying, okay, I'm representing the the posterior as a point mass around the most likely setting of parameters.
And then we can say okay well maybe the posterior which is really like so the loss functions that we're minimizing are basically negative log posteriors. Um maybe the posterior looks nothing like a point mass and it looks nothing like a Gaussian. It's very multimodal. It's very messy. But we can still do a better job of representing it with a Gaussian than with a point mass. And so let's use a Gaussian approximation. And indeed when we do that we often see better generalization because we're representing all these other complimentary and compelling explanations to our problem. And then we can keep taking it from there. Okay, maybe we can develop some MCMC procedure that will explore the loss landscape and capture something much richer than just unimodal Gaussian structure etc. And again we see improvements in performance
Connecting Bayesian methods to flat minima
in doing that. And so I actually think that basian methods have been an extraordinary success story in deep learning and beyond. But we don't hear as much about them now as we did maybe 10 years ago. And I think there are a number of reasons for that. So to some extent they're a victim of their own success. So I think there there was some lowhanging fruit in being able to do better approximate marginalization in neural nets around 2015 and there was really a lot of progress between about 2015 and 2020 in achieving increasingly better results uh that will also be kind of computationally e efficient. So there are procedures like one we developed called swag for instance which was based on uh some insights we had into the the structure of these loss landscapes that will allow you to do basian marginalization without really any significant additional cost on training.
It's a bit more expensive a test time and so on. It's also deep kernel learning which uh basically just requires a single forward pass through the model and you get sort of some representation of epismic certainty. Um and these procedures were adopted in practice. And so if I go like to some more domain specific conference like some workshop or conference on materials engineering and things like that, I'll see lots and lots of talks using basian optimization, Gaussian processes, neural networks um with uh epistemic uncertainty representation etc. So this is really useful in practice but it's very hard to kind of go beyond the useful approximations I think we developed without doing a significantly um without making sort of a really significant you know 10ear kind of style moonshot landing kind of investment in those directions which I think is worth making. Um secondly there's the advent of LLMs and that did sort of change things in practice. So like we went from million parameter models to billion parameter models and the role of
epistemic uncertainty is also a little bit less clear I think in some instances when we're working with LLMs and so uh this is just a real technical challenge and I think we're just sort of barely starting to scratch the surface of how to think about it but the motivation is absolutely there I think it's really greater with these big models than it is for virtually any other model class and in this sense I don't know how anyone could not be a basian like How could anyone say I don't want to represent epistemic uncertainty? I don't like using jargon. So there's like there's aliatoric uncertainty which means irreducible uncertainty often associated we have given a data set we have some noise on that data set there's nothing we can do about it. That's ali uncertainty. Epistemic uncertainty is uncertainty that's reducible with more information. And we believe that uncertainty is there. And there's even an argument that that might be the only uncertainty in the world, right? Like things that seem intrinsically random, like I could roll a dice and it might seem like, okay, there's a one six probability that it'll land on any one of the sides. But if I had enough information, like if I could sort of exactly know the strength of the throw,
the wind in the air, the friction on the table, and I had the right physical model, I should be able to predict exactly what side it's going to land on with each throw. So that's just saying okay the more information we gather the less uncertainty we have even for this process that somehow seems intrinsically random and physicists modern physicists now you know probably do believe that some aspects of the universe are intrinsically random radioactive decay and things like this um but many others have not historically like Einstein was a determinist um and so he would have believed that the only uncertainty there is is epistemic uncertainty and I think for practical purposes that's not an unreasonable belief um and so it's absolutely crucial that we try to model it in some way to not do it is just to do something that's mathematically incorrect and could come at a huge cost.
There's also a change I think that's happened in this movement to LLMs in the way that people think about data. So it used to be the case that you kind of have a fixed data set and then you throw everything you can at it to get the best possible performance. Maybe you have some scientific problem and you just really want to do well and you're limited by computation and other things to some extent but it's not the case that you have this sort of tradeoff to manage for a given computational budget between the size of the data and the size of the model and so that's described by these scaling laws like chinchilla scaling laws and that is starting to become the assumption in mainstream machine learning that you have almost like an arbitrary amount of data and you have a fixed computational budget and you want the best possible performance under that computational budget. In that case, you know, rather than trying to be more basian or something like this, it could actually make sense just to use more data. Um, but the but the other huge benefit though is because you mentioned um, you know, that for whatever reasons that we're still trying to understand these
large, you know, large neural networks, deep neural networks have this kind of simplicity bias towards simplicity, right? And marginalization is the ultimate AAMS razor. You know, it's like AAM's guillotine or something that really can force models, you know, force you to select, let's say, the simplest model that's consistent with the data in a in a sense. So, I think there's possibly more to gain there, like just, you know, trying to understand in computationally tractable ways how to pull in more of those effects of marginalization like on inference. I mean, is that true?
Absolutely. Yes. So basian marginalization has this automatic aams razor bias and I actually started working on basian deep learning ironically when I saw a talk on optimization which might be viewed as almost the opposite of being basian. So Jorge Nosadol gave a talk at Cornell where I was initially a faculty and he was presenting on small batch biases basically of stochastic optimizers and he had this figure where he was contrasting flat optima with sharp optima and he had this horizontal translation of the the loss landscape and under that translation the flat minimum still had reasonably good test loss but the sharp minimum had very bad test loss and so he was saying this is why we want to do stocastic optimization with small batches because it's going to be more likely to find these flat solutions and in some sense like the other optimizers like his LBFGS and so on were like too good they were like converging to these sharp minima and if like you just care about minimizing loss then maybe that's not bad behavior but generalization depends more than on just
getting a low value of loss at least with the loss functions that we're using and so I saw that figure and I thought well this is actually really great motivation to be basian because if you're being basian you're not just betting everything on one solution you're integrating under sort of a flipped version of that curve. And so automatically most of the volume will be in these flat regions. And that's so much more elegant than approaching this from the optimization perspective where you have to say then okay I need to rigorously define what it means to be flat like maybe it's going to be like the largest value of the hessen. Maybe it's going to be flat tensor or something like that.
Exactly. Yeah. Maybe flatness in random directions um versus sharpest directions. uh uh maybe it needs to be parameterization invariance like that's that's been often a criticism of of discussions around flatness etc that it's most ways of measuring flatness aren't parameterization invariant I have thoughts about that separately but anyway you you might then look at fisher matrices or something okay so then once you've decided on what it means to be flat and no one will completely agree with you and most people will will strongly disagree whatever you choose then you have to decide like how much am I going to penalize sharpness no one will really know what to do about that either and like the idea is you want to build a loss function is a better proxy for generalization by accounting for things like flatness, but it's just this
Using marginal likelihood for scientific hypothesis testing
really messy rabbit hole. Whereas, if you're just doing marginalization, this is all happening under the hood. You don't need to worry about it. And so, that's really elegant. And then there's AAM's razor in terms of model selection. And I I'd recommend that everyone check out chapter 28 of David Mai's information theory and and uh inference learning algorithms book. Uh it's titled AAM's Razor. And I don't agree with some of the stuff in that chapter. And in fact, we wrote a paper about this on basian model selection and marginal likelihoods. But it's it's a very beautiful description of automatic aams razor. And he has these just extraordinary visualizations to try to demonstrate how that's possible. So he has like these also, you know, everyday examples as well like that this idea that maybe you have like a block behind a tree, but if you had x-ray vision, it would appear to be like two blocks of equal height and color or 10 blocks or something like this. But given that you don't have X-ray vision and you don't think this is a trick question, you'd be pretty confident it's got to be one block. And this seems like some manifestation of AAM's razor and you might try to rationalize this by saying,
10 Highlight · Bayesian marginal likelihood as automatic Occam's razor
well, it would be just a remarkable coincidence to have two blocks standing next to each other of equal height and color. But he argues that this is actually a quantifiable consequence of doing basian marginalization. And so he basically has this conceptualization where you have all possible data sets on a horizontal axis and the probability of generating a particular data set under your model on the vertical axis. And that's the marginal likelihood, the probability that you would generate your training data under your model prior.
And so if you have the oneblock model, you're not going to be able to generate very many different data sets. So most of the data sets on the horizontal axis have no support, no PD given M. But the ones that it can generate, it's going to have to give a lot of probability for because this is a proper normalizable probability density. Similarly, if you have the 10 block model, you can generate all sorts of different types of observations, but you're going to have to sort of spread that mass more thinly because this is like a proper normalizable probability density. And so for a particular data set that's consistent with both of these models, like the block behind the tree example, the oneb block model is actually going to have significantly more probability.
And this is even not factoring into account the idea that maybe we have some prior preference for simplicity and that there's like we think that one block is more likely than 10 block or something like that. He's just like let's just forget about this ratio of prior odds and only consider this ratio of marginal likelihoods. And so it's just a beautiful demonstration of how basian inference automatically encapsulates a notion of AAM's razor. This is just a fundamental question in science like if you have arbitrarily many hypotheses that are consistent with any number of
observations you can ever record how do you choose between them what what what's the principal way of approaching that problem and the answer to some extent I think is given by basian marginal likelihoods there are um very subtle issues I think with some of the ways that this can be done and so we wrote a paper all about that but largely speaking it's um you know something that I think people should acquaint themselves with because it it is sort of getting at something very fundamental and it's has extraordinary practical value.
What was that paper was that the the one that we were sort of looking at. So we had a paper called basian model selection the marginal likelihood and generalization and so uh that paper is really trying to sell two sides of a story. On the one hand, it's trying to convince the readers that the marginal likelihood is something quite extraordinary and that there's a reason we should be interested in it because if it isn't, then you know, if you haven't heard of it, like why even read criticisms of it if it's something that doesn't matter. Um, the other part of the paper is questioning whether it's answering exactly the question we want to be asking when we're doing model selection towards trying to achieve the best possible generalization. And so the question that the marginal likelihood answers is what is the probability that my prior generated the training data that's different than what is the probability that my posterior after I've observed the data is going to lead to reasonable predictions.
And so we can construct examples that really illustrate this difference. Like you could have a uniform prior over solutions that you expect to be easily identifiable from the data. And so the posterior will contract very significantly around something that will actually be quite reasonable and make reasonable predictions, but the marginal likelihood will be really bad. And so we construct all sorts of examples where there's actually a misalignment between the marginaliz marginal likelihood and generalization for these reasons. Um you could also overfit um even though you have sort of some robustness to overfitting like if you're considering arbitrarily many models you could just get super unlucky and have a model which is like a point mass prior around something that can only generate that training data set but isn't going to do anything reasonable. So the marginal likelihood might prefer that but it's not going to lead you to a model that's going to make good predictions. It is very useful as sort of a horistic for model selection in many instances. It's got incredible practical value in learning things like hyperparameters that control complexity in Gaussian processes. Um, and I think it often is the right tool for scientific hypothesis
testing which is subtly different. And so you could this is actually a real historical example. So there was a dispute between statistitians. I think Columbia University thought that um general relativity was not the explanation for Mercury's irregular orbit. Uh it's called Mercury's perihelion. There must be some hidden planet or some orbital debris or something like that. And so basian statistitians actually went ahead and computed the marginal likelihood associated with general relativity explaining Mercury's orbit versus these alternative hypotheses like um some modification to Newtonian gravity etc.
And because general relativity was so falsifiable, like its predictions were so sharp and consistent with what we observed, it had orders of magnitude, greater marginal likelihood than something like a modification to Newtonian physics where you have to have some distribution over the modification might sort of enable you to explain what we see, but it also is going to generate other data sets and so its mass is going to be spread more thinly. And so I think that's actually a beautiful demonstration of how the marginal likelihood can be used for for scientific hypothesis testing.
Yeah. Are there any other heristics? I
Training dynamics link compression to model quality
mean we've spoken about marginal likelihood and and model complexity and so on and I'm just thinking of take the game of life you know you have all of these simple rules and what we do there is is we we do this you know this sequence of computations and it's irreducible as as Wolram would say and we just look at the dynamics right I mean is is there something to that is it my intuition is that just by looking at the thing in isolation doesn't tell you something like actually running it you know in in the real world over several steps of computation that that's where the information is about whether the model is good or not. Is is that is that a fair intuition?
That's a great intuition and it's connected with the marginal likelihood and um sequential coding and ideas and information information theory. So this is something we've been thinking about a lot actually in trying to go beyond komograph complexity and very much related to your earlier question connected to benign overfitting this observation that models first tend to fit structure and then they start to fit noise and so if we can think of some sort of like compute limited come complexity um maybe we could start to get some idea of how to do model selection and the marginal likelihood actually can be written as the uh so the marginal likelihood is the probability of the data under your model condition on your model And so you can use the chain rule of probability to write that as the product of P of DI given D less than I essentially. Um and so you take the log of that and it looks sort of like the log under your sort of training curve as you're observing more and more data. And so these these things are all connected together. Um and I think this is a very reasonable way of trying to understand how to do model selection properly. Sort of thinking about compressibility but also thinking about
um the dynamics of training. how like a model's representation evolves with increases in computation. Yes. And and David Ko I mean when he talks about intelligence he says it's was it inference adaptivity and representation but when he was talking about emergence he said it's about a fundamental reorganization in in the micro substrate. So um you know take Nabia Stokes for example it's a reorganization where this new higher level description now does you know is a better description than at the molecular level. And surely there must be a thing in training dynamics as well that you know when if if there is some kind of emergent behavior um there would be a fundamental reorganization and then with some emergentist optimization where you are looking at the macroscopic behavior you would actually select that underlying model which generated it.
Mhm. Yeah. I mean I think that's that's that type of reorganization is is what's happening in and double descent and um probably groing too, right? Where like is it that's an interesting Yeah. Yeah. like you you know it starts to reorganize like it's it hasn't it's not that it's found lower lower loss or anything it's just because of the simplicity bias all the hyperplanes has started to adjust into like a simpler phase you know almost of of parameter space yeah we didn't we speak to Dan Daniel Roberts about that he had that criticality thing in during right right that was a similar idea the deep learning the there's a we talked to these physics guys who who you know were trying to start if you will a physics-based perspective perspective on theory of deep learning and they they had some really interesting points about criticality and sort of that yeah I agree I think grocking is similar right it's like you you start forcing more and more data and essentially because it can't memorize anymore it's forced to reorganize into these simpler you know more generalizable representations
yeah more training is that well more more training and and also it's related to the size of the model too right like is it is it becomes if if it's too small to really memorize anymore. It has to reorganize. Well, that's a good question, too, because you had this amazing paper out and we we were skimming it earlier and oh god, what was it? Um, it's not deep learning is not so mysterious after all. Not so different after all. Not not so mysterious or different.
Scaling laws and grocking stem from representational reorganization
Yes. And and so so um you're talking about this benign um overfitting and you know double descent and over parameterization, but would you would you lump potentially grocking in with that as well? That's a great question. And so in the intro at the end of the intro to that paper I say that I'm not talking about groing or scaling laws much in this paper because these phenomena are often not treated as particularly mysterious or distinct to to neural nets. Um but I would say that they fit into this sort of suite of generalization phenomena that we can try to understand using some of the same tools. And so the generalization bounds that I present in in that paper now are being used by us and others to try to understand the root of scaling laws. I mean they seem like remarkable laws of nature almost like if you increase computation by a certain am amount you can predictably improve generalization on a set of tasks but it's sort of this empirical law and so we want to understand why and this relates to why you know larger models might have stronger simplicity biases
and things like that and so definitely the generalization frameworks that we present in that paper that I present in that paper can um be used to shed light on scaling law behavior. uh grocking is not something I've thought about too specifically, but it does seem to be the case that by training for longer, the model is doing some reorganization that enables a more compressible solution. And so it would be very interesting. I'm sure people have done this like measure like you know the flatness of the solution and things like that as you proceed through groing. Um and I think this is actually an older like many things older than people might realize. So like double descent is thought of as like a modern deep learning phenomenon but it was actually first presented in the 1980s.
Um and so this has been sort of around for a while and I remember like Ilia Satsgiver and others talking about behavior that was very similar to groing where like the training loss isn't really changing but training for longer actually leads to better generalization. And this relates a little bit um to a procedure we had called stochcastic weight averaging. And so the idea there is you want to ramp up the learning rate um to a relatively high constant learning rate and then maintain a running average of the parameters as you're sort of traversing this loss landscape with SGD or atom or whatever else. And what happens when you do that is you're sort of spinning around the periphery of flat solutions. Um and by taking an equal average you get to move inside that region and get a much sort of like flatter solution. um and that reliably led to better generalization and it's quite convenient because you can just load up a pre-trained model and then increase the learning rate do this for you know a certain number of epochs and get sort of better generalization as a consequence and so I think you know grocking might be related to to that
sort of behavior as well I think I think this ability to to move um in the parameter space during optimization I personally think that's also part of the explanation for double descent right because it's like as you provide more and more flexibility and it can shift around a bit. So I'll give you I'll give you why I think that because um you know you're familiar with integer
11 Highlight · Optimization analogy from integer to floating-point programming
programming. So like where you're trying to solve some system of equations where you're looking for a solution only among integers you know so you have whatever thousands of integers extremely difficult combinatorial optimization problem you know because what what am I supposed to do try out like all the different integers there's no smoothness etc. So people figured out like really early on, you know what, let's just expand the parameter space to go from integers to just floating point numbers and then just do a floating point optimization and when we get to the end crystallize it to sort of the nearest you know integer solution that's like you know pretty turns out being pretty good right and it's this ability to move like within this numerical space smoothly you know that allows it to find like reasonable integer integer solutions and And I think that's sort of what happens with double descent too, right?
You're preaching to the choir. So adding flexibility. Yes. So we can have Yeah. flexibility and biases. Yeah. Right. So you can move around a bit more and then almost stumble into or maybe it's you know by virtue of whatever the structure or the landscape or SGD you know whatever it is but just the ability to kind of and I think there's a paper about these wormholes like sort of being able to wormhole to a better a better solution you know because you have a
more complex space and the higher and higher the dimensionality is the more likely they're sort of a wormhole to a near a nearby good solution and maybe it's related to this connected modes. Exactly. It sounds a bit like mode connectivity. So actually after I heard that talk from Jorge Nosadol about flatness and its role in generalization
Mode connectivity reveals continuous flat manifolds
and its connection to small batch optimization and thought well I want to do basian deep learning. I had done a lot of basian ML and I had done some deep learning but I hadn't thought about basian deep learning until I saw that figure in his talk. I thought well before we get into basian marginalization let's try to understand the geometric properties of these objectives that we're minimizing first so that we can come up with like good posterior approximations and so in some sense this is a bit basian agnostic it should be useful even if you're just doing classical optimization and then we had this you know the first thing that we encountered was this discovery we called mode connectivity which shows that if you retrain your neural net for example with different initializations and find seemingly different modes in fact you can actually walk from one mode to the other in sub subspace without increasing the training loss at all along the way. And so before that it had been believed that the different solutions that we would find for example by retraining our model uh were isolated from one another. So you walk in any direction and you increase the loss a lot along the way. And there there were
some results from Goodfellow and others to suggest that intuition. Um we showed that you can introduce very simple sort of parametric curves like a polygonal chain with just a single turn or a quadratic bezier curve. You can anchor the end points with whatever solutions you find in this procedure that finds your two parameter vectors w1 hat w2 hat and then as you vary the the parameter of this curve t from 0 to one you walk from one to the other and then the idea is well how do you sort of learn this curve and you can discover these by minimizing your loss uniformly in expectation over the curve. So if you're um doing classification, this looks sort of like a line integral of cross entropy loss normalized by arc length. And it's actually a pretty simple objective to try to minimize because you could just sort of sample uniformly along the curve t and then take gradient steps with respect to the parameters of the curve theta that you're trying to learn. And you can always do this and the larger you make the model um the less of an arc length they're kind of or sorry less of a sort of bent turning that you need to do the more it looks almost like a straight line path between the two
solutions. And so what this showed is that there were these regions within the loss landscape that were extraordinarily flat. So they all had sort of zero loss. And what was especially interesting about them was that the different parameters in these mode connecting curves actually led to models which made very different predictions on the test set. So of course they're making the same predictions on the training set to have the same loss but on the test set they were different representations. And so this meant that you could ensemble them and get much better performance for example just uniformly sampling on the curves. And then this led to this stochastic weight averaging procedure where we were sort of thinking well how can we sort of spin around these like contiguous regions of flat solutions and find something that's centered within them that ended up being fairly practical. Yeah.
But even um I suppose also related to to the groing question is where does the gradient come from? Because you just said well you know it's the same on the training data but on the test data it's actually behaving differently. Right? Where does the signal come from? like what what happens when you continue to train a model which has ostensibly converged but it's it's behaving different on vow well I mean I have a I have a thought on that like I don't maybe maybe this helpful but so I'm I'm big fans of Balstriero you know Randall Balstrio's kind of he helped me personally at least through through the work on the spline theory of deep to understand them better and I think what's happening there is because if you if you agree with that and you kind of think of these splines as as essentially just unbelievably hyperdimensional honeycomb, right? And all these shared kind of hyperplanes that are activating. I think what's happening there is they're really slowly just moving. You know, this slopes are just slightly changing and then they happen to hit a phase change where it's like, wow, now we can combine
all these hyperplanes into a much like less lower complexity or, you know, simpler, more parsimmonious kind of combination. And that's that's what it is. Like I think that's what's happening. It's just slowly slowly shifting and then snaps into place. Right. Well, yeah. And I don't know whether you saw his ICML paper from last year, but he he he had a spline interpretation of groing and he said exactly that. Basically, you know, um during groing, the splines just suddenly and slowly moving because because there are so many of them overlapping. But what happens is it forms this honeycomb where they just kind of compress together.
And I I should have said this to David Kow because he said there's a reorganization in the micro substrate. And what's this if it's not a reorganization where the the you know those little hyperplanes if you like the honeycomb it just does that during droing during groing. Yeah, it's fascinating. Grocking is not something I have thought about too specifically but it seems to me that you probably are entering some region of the loss landscape that doesn't have different loss but is providing a representation with very different properties. And so this does relate to procedures like stocastic weight averaging where again in the end the solution doesn't really have a different loss than what you would have gotten training in a standard way but it has properties that will lead to better generalization um better compressibility etc. I still don't quite understand where the drive to more compressible slashs simpler representations is coming from just mechanistically like in the optimization process you know I mean I don't know maybe it's just like you said maybe it requires less floating point precision and so that that the optimize the jitter
in the optimizer or something like that you know I I just I'm really curious about the actual mechanism you know that forces you there like if there is no change in loss Mhm. Or maybe it's so tiny we just don't really pay attention to it. I don't know. But I'm super curious like what's really driving it downhill, if you will, to a simpler solution. You might sort of get to start to I I I mean this is really speculation and I haven't thought a lot specifically about groing, but it could be that you're just sort of edging your way inside because of gradient noise and so on towards a flatter solution as you continue to train.
Yeah. Yeah. Just some type of Yeah. It's really fascinating. This sort of made me wonder actually after the mode connectivity discovery like what what do these loss landscapes really look like the the path that we considered initially were just one-dimensional eventually we started thinking about multi-dimensional loss volumes kind of and so we had a paper which was creating a simplex we were basically adding vertices to the simplex and sampling uniformly within the resulting simplex and trying to sort of add vertices such that when we did that we would sort of have low loss and also maximize the volume of the simplex. And so that sort of enabled us to find these sort of like multi-dimensional loss surfaces. And then we had this that all had sort of low loss. Um and we had this picture I guess in the front of that that paper where we started with this sort of original understanding that all the local optima are kind of isolated to wormhole-like tunnels between the different optima to this idea that maybe everything is just sort of connected together in some manifold that's embedded in this really highdimensional
space. And what seems like a sharp or a flat optima might actually just be like how converged are you with inside that manifold because if you're on the edge it'll look it'll look sharp because you move in most directions and you increase the loss quite a bit but if you move in specific directions it's very flat and so I think we still don't have a full understanding of what that looks like and I think it has really fascinating implications for the generalization behavior. It's really hard to think in a billion dimensions. I mean, yeah, it really is. Andrew, um, so let let's sum up a little bit. Your philosophy is we should have maximally flexible models with soft
Balancing expressiveness and simplicity bias
regularization. How is that actionable to um practitioners? I mean, what what what because you also um gave many practical empirical examples, you know, um ensembling models together and and you spoke about this residual pathway prior and so on. Help us understand. Mhm. So my philosophy is that we should honestly represent our beliefs in the way that we do model construction. And our honest beliefs are usually that the real world is a nuanced place and we're going to want to have model expressiveness in order to represent that nuance. At the same time, it can't just be flexibility.
It has to be flexibility combined with some sort of simplicity bias. It should have some kind of aams razor bias. It turns out perhaps surprisingly that making transformers and other types of neural net models larger often actually enhances rather than reduces a simplicity bias. And this is in many instances mostly what's been responsible for the better generalization behavior of larger models. So we had this example with double descent where in the second descent all the models have basically zero training loss but the larger models are generalizing better. can't be because they're more flexible. It has to be because they have some other bias, some sort of simplicity bias. So, how do we operationalize this? I think one way is well embrace expressiveness. So, choose a model class that is going to be able to represent lots of different solutions. In terms of the simplicity bias, well, we're finding empirically that increasing model size can help with that. And so if you're able to build a really big model, you probably should
both for the expressiveness and the simplicity bias. But what if what if I'm a researcher who like I just want I want the simplicity bias to go to 11, but I can't afford more parameters. Is there something I can tweak in my objective function to just push me a little bit more towards simplicity without breaking things? Yes. So there are a lot of things you can do I think and we'll talk about them but the um the question of how can you more elegantly encode this compression bias beyond just making the model bigger is really a fascinating open research question. So my contention and I might be wrong is that in many cases a 7 billion parameter model is not doing better than a 1 billion parameter model primarily because it's more expressive. It's actually because of this simplicity bias.
And perhaps things like knowledge distillation can help make this argument. If it's possible to really distill a large model into a much smaller model, then it means that the small model has some setting of its parameters that can provide a good approximation to the large model. It's just not able to find those parameters when trained directly on the data. It needs the help from the teacher model. And so the question is can we build the 1 billion parameter model with some sort of like explicit bias that would have otherwise come about through scale in the 7 billion parameter model and find those solutions itself. I don't think we're anywhere close to being able to do that. I think it's it's sort of a an open research program. However, there are little things we can do that will help. So like there are ways of intervening in the training procedures. So like the stochastic weight averaging we discussed um that will help find a flatter more compressible solution. There are um of course all sorts of regularizers that that can be useful in in certain
instances. Um basian marginalization can be very helpful in sort of encoding an automatic simplicity bias in what we do. Um and so there are all sorts of interventions that will help us with this. But I think the dream is that maybe we can embrace flexibility in you know 15 20 years from now by building these nonparametric models that like really do have an infinite number of parameters and are more expressive than any model we're using right now but then they have this sort of like more explicit compression bias that is interpretable and is getting us what building huge models is inelegantly giving us right now.
That's interesting. I mean the the other kind of interpretation that some folks at home might have based on what you've said is going back to Rich Sutton's bitter lesson right so he said that designing things is bad don't put your symmetries in there don't don't kind of create these multifaceted systems just scale and lots of computation is the way forward because it seems like one potential interpretation of what you're
Inductive biases can improve scaling exponents
saying is that we should create hybrid systems that make models more flexible by combining different modalities and what you're kind of saying is we should just have bigger models. So are you a Sutton guy or or not? So I think the bitter lesson is widely misunderstood and incomplete. The bitter lesson describes how over short time scales it's been appealing to try to encode our knowledge into our procedures in order to achieve good results. uh and that this is also a cognitive bias that people have. They like encoding expertise and things like this and being thoughtful and elegant about problem solving. But over longer time scales than a typical research project, computation becomes cheaper. And so quite often more brute force seeming approaches based on search and learning end up working a lot better than elegantly encoding our priors and our constraints etc.
And there are a number of examples in the essay like deep blue uh for playing chess in the late 90s uh speech recognition where some researchers were trying to model things like physiology of the voice box etc to try to get any possible advantage but then they were beat out by statistical procedures like hidden marov models and of course alpho and and other procedures like this too. And so the takeaway seems to have been because of how computation is becoming cheaper over longer time scales, quite often it's going to be more practical to try to build procedures that are based on search plus learning as opposed to feature engineering.
I think to a large extent this is true. But what it doesn't say is that in order to learn, you need to make assumptions. And so machine learning, as we discussed, is learning by example. And we can't do that without making assumptions. So if we go to like maybe this coin toss example where we're trying to estimate the bias of the coin, you have to make some assumption like do before I start doing that experiment, are we assuming a uniform bi uniform bias? uh uh are we thinking it's looking sort of more like uh you know centered around 0.5 or something like that like being unbiased but it we have support for other things. these assumptions are going to influence how we do induction.
And so like we just can't get away from making assumptions. And so the question is just what assumptions should we make and to what extent can they be universal? And when it comes to things like scaling laws that describe how we can reliably improve performance with increases in computation, if we're able to make better assumptions, we can actually change the scaling exponents which act which which mean that we'll get exponential improvements in performance with increases in computation, which is just remarkable motivation for trying to do this. And it's not just a contention that this might be possible. We're actually starting to see some evidence of this.
And so in our own work, we've been very interested in how we can produce structured representations for linear layers and neural nets. And so um this might sound very abstract, but there's a very well-known example of doing this. So you can actually start with a fully connected layer having every possible connection between two between the nodes and two two layers. Um remove a bunch of the connections and enforce parameter sharing and you have a convolutional layer. And so mathematically what you've done is you've replaced a dense matrix multiply with a matrix that has sparity and locality and uh that's a toplit matrix. And so there's this question of like could you actually systematize this process of creating structured layers towards better compute optimal efficiency? And if you were to do that, what sorts of principles should we be embracing? Should we embrace things like parameter sharing because convolution for example has parameter sharing. um should we embrace uh sparsity? Should we embrace other sort of features? And so
we introduced this sort of Einom formulation over structured matrices that contains um all sorts of different structures as special cases as well as all sorts of different novel structures and this taxonomy of interpretable hyperparameters that kind of control the properties of these structures. So how fast is it to do a matrix multiply? Um what's the rank of the matrix? What how much parameter sharing there is? And we'd have sort of the continuous values for these parameters that would control these things. And what we found is that actually in general towards compute optimal efficiency assuming we have you know as much data as we ever need. Um parameter sharing was actually not a great principle. Um uh and that was a bit surprising. You also want to have full rank structures and that move from surprising to sort of disappointing.
It's like well can we go beyond what we're doing with dense matrices then because that's what we're using now. Um and the answer is yes if you can get faster multiplies. So we proposed a structure called a block tensor train um which is related to another structure called a tensor train and another structure called a monarch matrix. It's basically a sum of monarch matrices. Um and um this sort of is full rank doesn't have parameter sharing but you can do multiply faster than you can with a dense matrix and this allows you to build wider layers for a given computational budget. And this this did have sort of a meaningful effect on the scaling exponents. And so this is sort of at a proof of concept level. um and a lot of work would need to go into parallelized implementations and so on of these structures. Um but it showed that it's possible and we're not the only ones. So there are um other groups uh uh that have been looking at neural tangent kernel inspired ideas to understand different regimes of learning like easy versus hard feature learning and so on and trying to think about well
what principles are actually going to modify these scaling exponents and uh other things like I think Albert Goo and others have been looking at like chunking and transformers and the inductive biases that are you know come with that and like whether we can change these inductive biases towards better scaling exponents and so I guess in short learning requires assumptions and so uh I don't think we can neatly compartmentalize like elegant ideas from having successful learning combined with computation uh we really do need to these things not only are not at odds with it with one another they really strongly go together yeah when we spoke I mean by the way out of all of those assumptions sparity seems like a really good one there's always one thing where you think that seems like a really good one Daniel Roberts was saying you know in in many effective theories in physics. That's that's one of the earliest assumptions is is sparity. But then you kind of get to other factors to consider like computational complexity and training tractability and and so on because in an ideal world we we would make these things sparse. What's stopping us?
It's a great question. So I'll say that I I think convolutions are a great idea. And if you're in this setting that I described earlier where you have a fixed data set and you want to do something reasonable in order to achieve the best performance, this will often work really well. And even if we're moving towards soft inductive biases from hard constraints, I would normally advocate for having some sort of convolutional inductive bias, even if it's not a hard constraint anymore. And that's what we were doing with residual pathway prior.
And there's been some interesting work on convolutional VITs and things like this to try to have these sorts of soft biases for more efficient learning. Um,
12 Highlight · Why parameter sharing fails in compute-optimal scaling
the reason that we found in this instance that parameter sharing didn't seem to be a good principle towards better compute optimal scaling is because we were in this setting where we could have as much data as we ever needed. And there wasn't much of a generalization gap. And so we basically just need to fit the data as efficiently as possible. And so this basically led to the principle of having as many possible parameters per flop. Um, and you might sort of wonder then well can you go beyond one parameter per flop?
And I think things like sparse mixtures of experts actually allow you to do this because you have some sort of gating function which might be acting over um e different um MLPS and you only have some subset of them that are active. And so you kind of divide your computation by K over E where K is the number of active efforts experts relative to a model with the same number of parameters. And so we also tried to push that principle a bit further in this work where rather than having the mixture of expert uh gating function operate over whole MLPS, it was actually operating over individual linear layers within the MLPS and the attention projection matrices. And so you would represent these layers as like sums of structured matrices and then you would have this gating function acting over the rank index of this sum. And this would allow like much finer grain rooting decisions across the experts and did lead to sort of better efficiency for a given amount of computation. But the short reason I think is we found parameter sharing to not be helpful because you basically just want to reduce your loss as efficiently as
possible and you have sort of as much data as you could ever need and there
The ultimate goal is discovering fundamental scientific theories
isn't much of a generalization gap. Also reminiscent of of VIT surprised everyone that that it did so well compared to CNN's. But um final question and we were talking about this in the car on the way over Andrew. Um the elephant in the room is that GPT5, you know, we have all these huge overparameterized models and on the surface they seem to be doing very well. They're they're benchmaxing and they're they're brilliant to use, but it feels that there's something missing. I mean, I I think they're not intelligent. I believe you would agree with that statement. What's missing and what's next?
So, one of the things I'm most excited about is developing AI systems that can discover new scientific theories at the level of general relativity or quantum mechanics. And we haven't even really scratched the surface in being able to do this. It's not even clear how datadriven that process would be, how much it would look like symbolic logic if we were to think about what Einstein did when he proposed relativity and how we might want to write that down as an algorithm and automate it on a computer. And so I would love to see progress in this direction. I think that some of the ideas that we've discussed around compressibility could play an important role in how we think about selecting for scientific hypothesis.
Also, ideas around universality, like what sorts of assumptions might be more universal than others and at what level of abstraction. But it's something that we haven't really made progress on at all despite a number of very exciting research projects in AI for science where neural nets for example are being used as blackbox function approximators in some sort of pipeline targeted at a very specific application. And I think this is extraordinary work and it's really uh a way in which machine learning is clearly doing a lot of good in the world. But I think it's time to to try to go beyond that paradigm towards really giving us new scientific insights into the data that we didn't have before. And in fact, that's, you know, something that I'm I'm really more excited about than anything else in in terms of how technology might develop in the future. Like if I were to go a thousand years in the future, one of the first questions I would have is, well, do we understand something about physics that we didn't before? Do we understand
how the brain works? Um and this is sort of a conventional sort of like approach to science where the theory is really the quantity of primary interest and the applications of course are important but they're not primarily why like no individual application is primarily why we care about the theory. Like GPS would break within minutes if we weren't accounting for gravitational time dilation and general relativity. But Einstein wasn't thinking about GPS when he proposed relativity. And if you have the theory, then um you can sort of suggest all sorts of applications that otherwise wouldn't have been on the horizon. And like we probably could train a neural network to correct for gravitational time dilation without understanding what's going on, but that wouldn't be nearly as exciting or useful as as having the theory of relativity.
Mhm. Yeah. Professor Wilson, thank you so much for joining us today. It's been amazing. Thanks so much. It's been a real pleasure. If you want to learn more about this work from Andrew, please check out the paper deep learning is not so mysterious. Uh also their paper basian deep learning and a probabilistic perspective of generalization which also discusses basian principles in deep learning. And also their recent paper compute optimal LLMs provably generalize better with scale that has further analysis on the source of the simplicity bias uh arising from scale. Cheers.


